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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 17:46:00 GMT -5
But Josh, the point of the issue is that it is very possible to turn people off to Christ and leave them TWICE the son of hell once you're done preaching.
I was simply sharing the principle as it is taught here by Christ.
Plain and simple; it is a definate possibility, according to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, to turn a sinner into twice the hardened sinner he was before the preacher ever got there.
Fred Phelps is a PERFECT example.
Unfortunately, so are some so called "Open Air Preachers"; they SAY they're preaching the Gospel...they SAY they love the lost...they SAY they pray for them.
They lie.
They're as sinful as the sinners they further harden with thei rmessage of "God Hates You".
Period.
Jesus said so, and I'm not afraid of calling a spade a spade.
Fred Phelps, Ruben Israel....wicked and abominable men, turning hardened sinners into "twice the sons of hell"
People have no problem saying, "Benny Hinn is a false prophet!".
Hillsong is "of the devil".
Fred Phelps is "from hell".
Watch out, though; you get the OA's wrath if you mention Ruben's name negatively.
Hypocrisy.
Jesus said that some CAN turn sinners into "twice the sons of hell".
So, who's doing it?
Not hard to see.
So...get away from them.
Or, become LIKE them.
It;'s an easy choice.
Friendship with wicked and rebellious men or friendship with God?
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Post by oap001 on Oct 3, 2006 17:58:36 GMT -5
It's funny I'm in defensive tactics school all week as I am an instructor and this is an instructor update class. We were going over our resister removal drill. This is where we move groups of people. The company that trains me is a national company. The train law enforcement from allover . Most recently they trained like 20 instructors for Chicago PD. There were cops there from all over the north east. We were talking about what kind of groups we encounter and what were their methods of resistance. Well guess what....it came up Christian activists. Now consider there were female lesbian officers in the class who like me and respect me. Basically what I'll tell you and you can fill in the blanks. There are some that (CA) that I would put my professional reputation on the line for and there are some I would not. Be resposnible..they all have stories of experiences....everything you say matters.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 3, 2006 17:59:11 GMT -5
Excellent post above there Jesse on your philosophy of ministry.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 18:01:41 GMT -5
It's funny I'm in defensive tactics school all week as I am an instructor and this is an instructor up date class. We were going over our resister removal drill. This is where we move groups of people. The company that trains me is a national company. The train law enforcement everywhere. Most recently they trained like 20 instructors for Chicago PD. There were cops there from all over the north east. We were talking about what kind of groups we encounter and what were their methods of resistance. Well guess what....it came up Christian activists. Now consider there were female lesbian officers in the class who like me and respect me. Basically what I'll tell you and you can fill in the rest. There are some that I would put my professional reputation on the line for and there are some I would not. Be resposnible..they all have stories of experiences that hey g=have had and everything you say matters. Amen brother!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 3, 2006 18:30:35 GMT -5
I understood your point and I thought mine went along with it. I'm sorry if it didn't. To make someone a two-fold child of the devil you give them a false sense of assurance. Whether that be in legalism or lasciviousness.
I don't see Jesus rebuking them because they made someone mad and won't come to God now, but rather perverted the truth and inoculated them to the Truth by giving them some type of false reality.
I'm assuming that entire post wasn't directed at me because I don't spend much time calling out names. I think Fred is the only one that I have ever spoken against. Mainly because I don't spend much time researching other people.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 3, 2006 18:43:40 GMT -5
I think it was made to me, but I do not talk much at all about Benny Hinn, Phelps, or Hillsong. Do not know much about them.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 19:53:51 GMT -5
It was directed to neither Josh nor Micah.
Josh, I love your preaching...as well as Jesse's, Miles', Evan's, etc etc.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 19:55:24 GMT -5
I think it was made to me, but I do not talk much at all about Benny Hinn, Phelps, or Hillsong. Do not know much about them. It wasn't directed to you at all. I simply made the statement. However, if you felt the conviction in it so greatly that you believe it to be so, I would encourage you to repent.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 3, 2006 22:43:01 GMT -5
Repent about what?
Thank you for clarifying it was not about me, but who is it towards?
You made statements that many people go around condemning Benny Hinn, Phelps, and Hillsongs and say they are of the devil but will not condemn Ruben.
Who are these people you are referring to? They are sure not on this website. Are they on another website?
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Post by josh on Oct 3, 2006 22:45:58 GMT -5
This was my latest post on SermonIndex:I've only been a Christian a little over five years. I have only been preaching open air for about five years. I have only read the Old Testament 5 times. I have only read the New Testament 15 times. I do pray but sometimes it's only an hour or two a day. And I fast very little. Jesse that post smacks with pride. Now mate ask yourself is it Christ like humility to openly state what you have done? The verse that came to mind when reading this was: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. - Matthew 6:5-6
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Oct 4, 2006 4:29:50 GMT -5
Well like I said I've been thinking about this whole concept for a long time and haven't figured it all out yet. That's a good scripture you brought up. I now have a new one to think about. They obviously did not go to Jesus, not did they encourage people t go to Jesus (are not entering to go in). When I preach, I encourage people to come to Jesus, and I have come to Jesus myself, but I still have people say, "You are turning people off. Don' t talk about sin. Don't talk about hell. Just tell them how much God loves them." Still thinking about this whole concept. People that tell me that I'm turning people off, or turning people away from Jesus Christ, I usually respond something like this. "I'm not here to turn you to Jesus Christ, If I could turn you to Jesus Christ, someone else can come along and turn you away from Him. I'm here to proclaim the truth." Then go back to them standing before God to give an account, go back to Gods judgement, go back to their personal sin, go and show them the holiness of God, preach Him with all your might, preach your heart out and be faithful to preaching the truth. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. God must regenerate a person. Let them be turned off, it'll only bring more glory to God if He should rain down from heaven the supernatural birth and regenerate them while they are turned off. It will exalt His name even higher, if He should turn them on while your turning them off. Paul Mcgrade
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 10:23:42 GMT -5
Paul, your statement is a dangerous statement; it is unScriptural to speak such words.
The Word declares that we are to WVOID seeking or having part in turning a sinne rinto TWICE the son of hell that he already is.
Yes, they are already turned off; Scripture says you can, by your example and preaching, turn them off further from the Kingdom.
God forbid that we should do this.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 10:25:51 GMT -5
Repent about what? Thank you for clarifying it was not about me, but who is it towards? You made statements that many people go around condemning Benny Hinn, Phelps, and Hillsongs and say they are of the devil but will not condemn Ruben. Who are these people you are referring to? They are sure not on this website. Are they on another website? Micah, I was making a general statement, that we, myself included, have no problem identifying others as false or off track...but when it comes to those we PREACH with or who are our FRIENDS, things change. As for repentance, I would encourage you to repent from your support of Ruben Israel and such as him, who bring open shame to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by robdog on Oct 4, 2006 10:45:23 GMT -5
Ruben's site is blocked by my web filter.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 11:09:01 GMT -5
Ruben's site is blocked by my web filter.
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robco
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by robco on Oct 4, 2006 12:23:31 GMT -5
Biblethumper, Amen Brother. I agree with you totally! Jesse, please listen to Dan, or at least take another look at Reuben. I see no differents between Reuben and Phelps. I'll pray for them both.
Biblethumper, I've been reading alot of your posts, and I must say you are truly a man of God. You have zeal, compassion for the lost and great understanding of the Word.
I called you a "Fake" in another post awhile back. Please foregive me! I do not think that of you any longer.
God Bless you Brother.
Rob
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 12:30:07 GMT -5
Biblethumper, Amen Brother. I agree with you totally! Jesse, please listen to Dan, or at least take another look at Reuben. I see no differents between Reuben and Phelps. I'll pray for them both. Biblethumper, I've been reading alot of your posts, and I must say you are truly a man of God. You have zeal, compassion for the lost and great understanding of the Word. I called you a "Fake" in another post awhile back. Please foregive me! I do not think that of you any longer. God Bless you Brother. Rob Hi Robco. No offence taken. Many times, I bring it on myself. As I related to Jesse, many times, after making a post, I re read them... only to see how mean I can appear at times. Hence, I push the delete button often, and many times fall to my kness to ask God for more of His Compassion. Sometimes, I just can't even see why God would even allow me to preach the Gospel Open Air. I believe it's a means of His causing me to lose all self pride and arrogance. Praise God for you, brother! Jesus Christ is still God, still Lord and still reigns supreme! NOTE: Jesse, the Lord has been speaking to you on these issues, f associating with the Ruben Israel's of the world... can you not hear, brother? This is not "division" in the sense of the Body of Christ "fighting and debating". The Body of Christ, with only a few exceptions, have spoken concerning Ruben Israel and those who bring shame to Jesus Christ. Turn from these wicked and rebellious men, Jesse. You're far too deep in the things of God to let men such as these destroy the Testimony of God in you. Steer clear of such vile men who are nothing more than baalam's among the Sheep.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 4, 2006 18:37:20 GMT -5
More and more I am convinced that:
If Joseph Alliene tried to publish his classic , "Alarm to Unconverted Sinners" where he writes to sinners, "how does it feel to be the object of God's hatred?" and "Does it not greatly disturb you to know that God Almighty abhors you?" he would not be able to sell his book in any Christian book stores today.
If Jonathon Edwards preached his famous "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sermon today, were he told sinners, "God abhors you!" he would be voted out of his Church today as he was in his day.
If John Wesley preached his doctrine of "Sinless Perfection" and "Original Ability" today as he did in his day, Christian magazines would publish against him and call him a heretick, and all Church doors would close on him, as it happened in his day.
If George Whitefield preached to sinners today, as he did in his day, and called them such names as "half devil, half beast, deserving of a thousand hells" he would be beaten and even stoned as he was in his day.
If William Booth used his shock & awe evangelism methods today as he did in his day, and argued like a mad man with an unbrella until a crowd gathered for him to preach to, he would be kicked out of modern evangelism networks, just as he was kicked out of the Methodist Church in his day.
Let's get honest. Just as Israel did with the prophets, we seem to build statues to these men now that they are dead. But if they were alive and preaching today, we would not treat them any better then they were treated by their own generation.
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Oct 4, 2006 19:59:57 GMT -5
Amen Jesse.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 4, 2006 20:04:13 GMT -5
So true Jesse. Excellent post.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 20:07:02 GMT -5
As pat would say, it's a shame you would lump such greats as Ravenhill, Wilkerson, Welsey, Edwards...it's a shame you would lump such Men of God in with con men such as Ruben Israel.
That's borderline blasphemy to do such a thing!
Ruben Israel should NEVER be placed in the same sentence with the above named Men of God.
Ruben Israel sparked NO revival, was promoted by no one but himself and his hatred of homosexuals as evidenced on his "ministry site".
Ruben Israel wrote no classics and certainly couldn't hold a candle to the men you have lumped him with.
Lt's be real here.
Ruben Israel is a bitter old man with a hatred for homosexuals.
It makes no difference what you or the Pope say, brother Jesse.
Looking at Mr. Israel's site screams against your commendation of such an abominable man who uses cuss words to describe homosexuals.
Shame on you for even writing the above post and comparing the two.
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Oct 4, 2006 20:20:18 GMT -5
biblethumper, regarding your reply to me. I know of the power of my God to save men, to regenerate men, that He is not under man that He cannot save a man if all of hell should be against him to drag him to hell. My God is not under man!
He regenerated me, when I was told a hundred different ways to salvation, all in the name of christianity. He saved me. If I can convince men to be saved, then thats good for awhile, untill they turn away. If God can convince them, they will be saved indeed. They will be regenerated and given life!
By this, I'm not saying there is no need for preaching. Without preachers, how shall they hear? But some of us think that we are in this to convince men to become Christians. Thats not our job. Our job is very different. You might have a jehovah's witness try to convince you to become a jehovah's witness. They will try to convert you themselves. They will believe they can convince you to become one of them.
Arn't many preachers doing the same in the name of Jesus Christ? They will try to convince ungodly men that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven! Well go ahead and try that to some tribe in the jungle who hasn't ever heard of Jesus Christ, the Bible, Christianity and see what they say to you. Again our job is not to convince men to become Christians, its not even our job to convince them to repent, or believe.
You misunderstand my writing if you have a problem with it, or you just simply don't read your Bible. Our job is to preach the gospel to every creature. How do you expect a God hating, God rebellious, spiritually dead creature to get up and do some jumping jacks? By your own preaching? By your own eleqounce? By your own words? There is no power in your words, or your preaching, or your whatever else. If God dosn't come down from heaven, your preaching is in vain. You might be able to win an argument, prove the existence of God, make people understand Jesus Christ is the only way and show them how they must be saved, but if God dosn't come down from heaven and grant a person regeneration, they are still dead, they still hate Him, they still want to rebel against Him and they still will rebel against Him.
Our preaching is in vain, unless God comes. Our preaching is in vain, unless Jesus Christ is really risen. We have no hope, there is no confidence in preaching, in words, in convincing men of the truth, there is no hope unless God comes and saves them.
Some of us think God is a robot to move automatically when we call out His name! Thats simply not true. God will come down from Heaven when He wants to, God will move if He wants to. God will stay on His throne, however long His wishes. The fact of the matter is, if God dosn't come down from the heavens and save us, we won't be saved and we have no hope. May we cry out to Him to rend the heavens and come in Majesty once again! That He might be exalted and all our preaching is but foolishness, unless God comes and grants Himself to a sinner.
Please dont think I'm arguing with you, or trying to prove my point, or trying something that I'm not, I just want God to be honor and glorified, may we all want this and join hands in this chief end of all man.
Paul Mcgrade
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 4, 2006 20:25:20 GMT -5
I think some people actually do not believe that God abhors sinners. And that is why they don't like preachers who say that God does.
Even if we don't like it being on t-shirts, banners, and sandwhich boards, can we all at least agree that God does abhor, not only homosexuals, but all sinners because of their sin? Can we all at least agree that a Holy God only delights in holiness and therefore detests anything that is unholy?
A man who views otherwise has the wrong perspective of God and the wrong perspective of sinners.
Ps 5:6 - You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Now King David didn't write it on a sandwhich board, but like Joseph Alliene who wrote it in his book and Jonathan Edwards who wrote it in his sermon, King David UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT wrote it in the bible. And maybe men, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, are preaching it today!
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 4, 2006 20:28:29 GMT -5
Amen Jesse, I wholeheartedly agree!
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 20:29:31 GMT -5
Paul, I believe in preaching. I Open Air. I believe i npreaching the Gospel. I DO NOT, however, believe that we are called to make sons of hell (the unsaved) TWICE the sons of hell they were before we got there. men such as Ruben Israel are doing just that. Men such as Fred Phelps are doing just that. You cannot state that such men are doing Gospel Work. If you do, you're deceived above deception and bring treproach to the Name of Jesus Christ. Here are some things from Ruben's site... if you give approval to this trash, you need a Holy Ghost wake up call to REPENT:
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 4, 2006 20:32:48 GMT -5
Ruben didn't create the evil, he simply rebukes it.
As we all should. We must publicly rebuke homosexuality and all sin.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 20:34:04 GMT -5
I think some people actually do not believe that God abhors sinners. And that is why they don't like preachers who say that God does. Even if we don't like it being on t-shirts, banners, and sandwhich boards, can we all at least agree that God does abhor, not only homosexuals, but all sinners because of their sin? Can we all at least agree that a Holy God only delights in holiness and therefore detests anything that is unholy? A man who views otherwise has the wrong perspective of God and the wrong perspective of sinners. Ps 5:6 - You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. Now King David didn't write it on a sandwhich board, but like Joseph Alliene who wrote it in his book and Jonathan Edwards who wrote it in his sermon, King David UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT wrote it in the bible. And maybe men, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, are preaching it today! The MANNER in which Ruben does it is WRONG, Jesse. Does God abhor? yes. Does Ruben use cuss words when he "preaches"? Yes. That's a sin. You're condoning turning sinners into twice the sons of hell. Ruben Israel is a sham. His dealings with homosexuals are not of God. Mark Cahill... ask Mark if he'd take Ruben on a trip to a homosexual parade. No wait! As anyone who loves the lost. Do you love the lost, Jesse? Do you REALLY? Or are you in this for the name, fame and glory? If you're more concerned about news crews, newspapers and condoning wicked men who cuss while they preach, you need to re-evaluate your style. Jesus preached from Love... He preached Judgment, Mercy and Salvation. He didn't use cuss words, disgusting photos and name call people. Hos godly is it to act in such ways, Jesse? Your condoning of sinful behaviour cannot be called Holy, brother.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 4, 2006 20:38:02 GMT -5
Would you ever tell a homosexual, or any sinner, that God abhors them?
King David did. Jonathan Edwards did. Joseph Alliene did.
We must speak the TRUTH in LOVE.
Many say they love but don't speak the truth.
Others speak the truth but have no love.
Would you ever tell a sinner that God is against him and that God abhors him?
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 4, 2006 20:57:12 GMT -5
I have preached with Ruben many times and spent much time with him, even stayed in his house for several days and I have never heard Ruben use a cuss word. Not preaching, not in conversation, not ever.
Where are you getting this information biblethumper?
By the way, I am sorry to say this but now you sound exactly like the sinners when you make statements like "It is not what he preaches that is wrong but the way he preaches."
I am not being sarcastic or antagonistic but statements like that really cause me concern.
So you are saying there is nothing wrong with what Ruben preaches but the way in which he preaches it?
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Post by ejuliot on Oct 4, 2006 21:08:18 GMT -5
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