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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2006 23:36:06 GMT -5
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Post by josh on Oct 5, 2006 23:42:07 GMT -5
Mate thats not the clip I have problems with. That clip I thought was alright (even though I am not a fan of amps. and signs). I also saw another one of him preaching to a large group of young people which I thought was decent. The one I have problems with were posted here awhile ago, and someone recently posted them on SOBE, and SI.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2006 23:53:35 GMT -5
I think the clips you mean were clips an unsaved person took and put online.
You really can't get a feel of a person because of one picture or because of one 30 second clip.
That is why I put together 10 minutes of Micahs preaching.
People really mis-represent guys like Micah when they post a single picture where he seems to have an angry face or when they post a 30 minute clip. It really doesn't give an accurate impression of his ministry.
It would be like if I cut up parts of Rays preaching in "In Season Out Season" where he yells at a girl "YOU ARE NOT SANCTIFIED. YOU ARE BLASPHEMOUS". People would think Ray just yells and accuses people all the time.
Good length videos are the only way, next to actually preaching with a person, to get a feel for their preaching.
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Post by josh on Oct 6, 2006 0:05:15 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 0:09:03 GMT -5
That's what I thought you were referring to.
The only problem I have with them is that they are so short.
You really need to see long length videos to get a good feel for the preaching.
This unsaved man obviously edited the videos to put the "not so favorable" clips up there.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 0:23:21 GMT -5
Well Josh, you are entitled to your opinion of me I guess. It is true what Jesse is telling you about an unsaved photojournalist posting those clips. I like him as a person, but he is unsaved and he is a photojournalist. He is looking for the sensational, the controversial, etc. He would also photograph all types of protests, rallies, etc.
He used to meet us at South Beach every week and take pictures of us. The police would use his pictures to investigate us. Most of the pictures he had were showing the confrontations between us and the people we were preaching to.
Once the police started investigating his pictures, he tried to take some pictures of us in a more favorable light, so it did not look like all we were doing was getting into heated confrontations.
Anyway, I would be very careful about judging anyone's preaching based on a short clip. I am sure I could take one of your messages and post a few 30 second clips and make it look like you preach like a soft boy sissy (I don't think you do preach that way, I am just trying to get you to think).
A photojournalist is not going to put the 45 minutes of scripture quoting on a clip, he is going to put me telling the guy he is a whoremonger, his girlfriend is a whore, and him throwing beer on me.
I really do not like using a bullhorn either, but many times it is helpful and necessary. Sandwich boards are good in certain situations.
Whatever you think of me is fine, I would just be careful about judging whether or not someone is a good brother or not based on a short clip.
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Post by josh on Oct 6, 2006 0:27:17 GMT -5
I am not judging if you are a good brother or not. But what I am judging is the preaching.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 0:28:58 GMT -5
I don't think even those short little clips are:
"Disgraceful and full of hate".
Micah is only disgracing sin and is only hating sin.
We need more hatred for sin.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 0:31:50 GMT -5
One more thing. I do preach hate. Psalm 97:10 says "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil."
Proverbs 8:13 says, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil..."
Hebrews 1:9 says, "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity..." speaking of Jesus and I am doing my best to be like Jesus.
I preach that sinners should stop hating God and loving sin, and start loving God and hating sin.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 0:35:46 GMT -5
That's bible!!
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Post by josh on Oct 6, 2006 0:43:17 GMT -5
I don't think even those short little clips are: "Disgraceful and full of hate". Micah is only disgracing sin and is only hating sin. We need more hatred for sin. I don't disgree with what he says, but the way it which he says it. Now that is disgraceful.
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Post by josh on Oct 6, 2006 0:43:43 GMT -5
One more thing. I do preach hate. Psalm 97:10 says "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil." Proverbs 8:13 says, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil..." Hebrews 1:9 says, "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity..." speaking of Jesus and I am doing my best to be like Jesus. I preach that sinners should stop hating God and loving sin, and start loving God and hating sin. I don't disagree with what you say, but how you say it.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 0:50:22 GMT -5
You sound like the people on campus and the streets now. What exactly does that mean? How am I supposed to say it?
This week on campus some students told me they thought I preached like an old testament prophet. I pointed out to them that when people saw Jesus they thought He was one of the old testament prophets or John the Baptist (Matthew 16).
If we are supposed to be imitating Jesus and He looked like an old testament prophet (at least sometimes) then why is it wrong if that is how we are perceived sometimes?
I really am curious Josh by what you mean in your above statement. Can you please clarify what you mean?
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Oct 6, 2006 0:51:38 GMT -5
When I first watched these videos (concerning Micah) I too myself was a bit shocked. However, I also realised that this was not the whole video and that it was a journalist that did the recordings. After watching other video footage of Micah I have no problem with his style of preaching. He preaches sin how it really is. (I think sometimes we don't really understand just how much God hates sin) I think it all depends on the audience which you have. If you are preaching to a group who are proud and sin in front of you I believe that you have every right to expose it for what it is. People need to know. They need to know what it is to fear God. Keep preaching hard Micah, I know the USA definetly need it
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Post by josh on Oct 6, 2006 1:05:47 GMT -5
I really am curious Josh by what you mean in your above statement. Can you please clarify what you mean? Alright what you said was biblical, and I think that message needs to be proclaimed. But from the clips your body language, and you antics came across as hateful. For example, jumping off the soapbox pointing at the girl, and also when the man touched you, and your homosexual line. You didn't really answer their questions or accusations but went on the attack, and not attacking the sin you attacked them. It appeared as if they had got the better of you, and had beaten you. Then you replied with anger. There was no concern in your voice for them, look at men like Whitefield who used to weep over the ungodly. He had a visible concern. Jesus Christ Himself wept of Jerusalem. These men while they were hard preachers showed love, and compassion. Whereas from the clips I have seen you don't.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 1:22:22 GMT -5
Josh I know you preach open air regularly so I am not trying to act like you have no experience because you do, but I do not know how much experience you have preaching in places like South Beach.
The homosexual line to the man was done to establish a boundary between us. I don't really get offended if a heckler touches me, but in order to keep a boundary between him and I, I warn him not to touch me. If you let someone start touching you soon they may start grabbing you and fondling you. It has happened to me before. Especially if women get to close and then they lie and say you touched them and since the crowd hates you they will side with her. You may also end up getting assaulted. I draw a line right away when people start touching me.
Most people regardless of what they say do not want to be known as homosexuals so when a guy I know is not a homosexual I may say that to him to back him off.
Don't say I did not answer their questions because it is only a thirty second clip. When I am preaching to a crowd I am not going to spend 20 minutes with one drunk guy that wants to put his arm around me and keeps saying the same thing. He didn't get it the last three times, I am not going to keep ignoring everyone else just to answer his question when he is not even listening.
Preaching on campus for five hours a day, people sit around for hours and hours hearing the same questions and answers and some of them still don't want to get it and they are not even drunk.
I am not sure what I said to the girl. What did I say or do? It has been a long time since I saw those clips. I think it was a girl saying she was a Christian but it was ok to masturbate. She needed a sharp rebuke (Open rebuke is better than secret love Proverbs 27:5). I reasoned with her and explained to her the scriptures before that, but the clip does not show that. She was not interested in any of that.
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Post by tonyholland on Oct 6, 2006 9:18:32 GMT -5
This is a mistake that is all to easy to make. I watch short clips of someone preaching and make a judgment about their ministry from those clips....or, I hear someone talking about someone preaching and make judgment based on that....etc, etc.
I have made that mistake way too many times and have also done it with this ministry. What changed my mind? Actually fellowshipping and watching Jesse, Miles and Jeff preach on the streets. If you feel that strongly about a person or a ministry, I would encourage you to do whatever you have to do, to go to these people and watch them in action before condemning them.
Personally, I don't know very much about Reuben, but the signs do seem to be a bit much. On the other hand, of the dozens of photos that I found of him ministering, I saw very few with him using those. Most were signs with nothing but Scripture. While I don't even think it is appropriate to use some of the more graphic signs at a homosexual parade, I certainly can't make a judgment about the man or the ministry as a whole based on that. Putting Reuben in the same category as Fred Phelps, I think, is pretty inappropriate. We see and hear the same message of hate wherever he goes. We also see that he goes out of the way to preach at the most inappropriate places in the world. (I don't care how big of a warrior of God you think you are, it is wrong to preach at another person's funeral without the families permission.)
Is it ok to disagree with others preaching methods? Sure, as long as it is done in love. Are we trying to correct and exhort or are we trying to condemn one another? Check you motives. Micah and I, for example are very, VERY different preachers. I'm sure he may think that I am too soft and I think he is sometimes too hard, but I think we have a mutual respect and love for one another as brothers in Christ who are willing to stand up for Jesus when others won't. I wouldn't do some of the things that Micah, Jesse, Miles, Jeff, etc, etc do, but I love them and are delighted at their passion for the Lord. I have mentioned a few things that I had issues with to them, and from there I trust the Lord to use those words to correct if needed, or to erase them from their memory if they are already doing exactly what God wants.
It's pretty scary when Christians start pointing at other Christians calling them "abominations", "of the devil", or even saying that a person is "just like those people on the streets" when they disagree. Seriously...Dan- Can you really say that Micah is "a abomination"? Micah, do you really think that Josh is "just like those people on the streets" I think when we do this, we are assuming that we possess divine knowledge of exactly how everything is supposed to be. I don't think any of us have that other than what we have in the Scripture. Lets focus on that and reason together with debatable issues.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 6, 2006 10:38:31 GMT -5
Brother Tony; I am through with this thread.
I stand on all of my statements concerning Ruben and Micah.
I am very aware of the fact that God has heard my heart in this matter.
God bless.
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Oct 6, 2006 12:44:47 GMT -5
Micah, maybe you can come up around the Hollywood beach area. I preach there every saturday night with some others. I'm only 16 though, but there are many people in this area and its wicked as wicked can be. We are there around 8:30-10:00. Near Sheridan street, around that area, on the beach. It would be great to see you, if you come I'll recognize you.
Paul
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 17:39:09 GMT -5
Excellent post Tony. Thank you.
No I don't think Josh is like the rest of the people on the street. I am sorry if it came across that way, because I certainly don't think he is like that.
I am very grateful for anyone who is out preaching on the street unless they are someone like a Phelps who has no business preaching.
What I said was the statement he made sounded very much like the ones I usually hear from the people on the streets. His statement was "I agree with what you say just not the way you are saying it."
This statement has always confused me and I don't know what people mean by it.
I guess Josh is saying because I don't cry when I am preaching then it doesn't come across the right way.
I wonder how many of the preachers on this board actually weep when they are preaching on a regular basis. Some people are very emotional. My wife weeps all the time. When she prays and when she preaches sometimes. In fact she did not preach for a while because everytime she would try she would just weep for sin. Stand up to preach on the beach and just weep.
I can't say I weep when I preach publicly. I think Whitfield was a great preacher and God used him mightily, but I can't say I think his messages were all that hard.
From what I read about Jonathan Edwards, he was a very stoic man and read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" in monotone. Did he love the lost?
Would we have accepted the way he said some things?
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 17:41:39 GMT -5
Paul,
I am in Georgia right now but I would love to preach with you when I get back down to South Florida. It is great to read your posts and I am so blessed that you are only 16, so knowledgeable of the scriptures, so bold, so passionate, out preaching and that you live in Broward county.
Many times I prayed for God to raise up preachers in the Broward area as well as the rest of Florida. Keep up the good work.
If you have seen me preach and still want to preach with me I would love to preach with you.
Keep up the good work!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 21:11:07 GMT -5
Guys,
I have been thinking about this thread all day and have actually been very depressed about it. I really respect the ministry of Josh Williamson and the wonderful work he has done in Australia. I think that is why I became so depressed.
To say that Micah's preaching is "disgraceful and hateful" I think is going too far. It's one thing to say, "I don't like your approach" or "I don't like the way you come across" or "I don't like your demeanor" or "I think you could come off as mean". But to just straight out declare the preaching as hateful I consider unrighteous judgment upon Micahs heart.
We shouldn't be so extreme in our judgments of one another. Ultimately we are serving the same God. We have the same purpose. And we read the same bible. We might not like all the approaches or antics each other use. (I really don't like the money give away or magic tricks, others do not like banners and bullhorns) but we are still one body and many parts. And I pray that God brings people into a relationship with Jesus through all of us.
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Post by tonyholland on Oct 6, 2006 21:20:24 GMT -5
No I don't think Josh is like the rest of the people on the street. I am sorry if it came across that way, because I certainly don't think he is like that. Bro, I assumed that you didn't mean that.....as has been said a million times, things can look different on a message board than they sound spoken to one another. It just gets pretty frustrating to see nothing but arguing. The doctrinal debate? Fine, thats how we get our doctrine today. I clearly think God is and can be in debates where we are all searching for the truth. I just hate seeing God leave these discssions when sinful pride and anger enter the conversation (that isn't aimed at anyone, we all see it from time to time) I would agree about the weeping though. I grieve for the condition of the lost and am saddened when they continue to reject the truth, but I can't recall ever crying about it in anything other than prayer. I think that it is important that we start having the same compassion for the lost as God had for us when He sent His Son to suffer and die for us. If we are always able to balance the truth and compassion when ministering, than I do truly believe that God will use it to further his glory. It may look different between each and everyone of us...but God will use it.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 21:27:05 GMT -5
Good post Tony.
I wish that the debates could consist of dealing with the "issue" rather then becoming an attack on a "person". This constantly grieves my spirit about these boards.
Also, we must have compassion when we preach. Compassion is not always shown through weeping, that is only one way. But ultimately love is an action, not an emotion. True love is when we lay down our life, face the rejection of the world and the criticism of our own brethren, for the glory of God and the salvation of the world.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 21:33:29 GMT -5
Tony,
I have been called a lot of things on this thread, but I hope you don't think I was arguing with Josh. I thought I have been very diplomatic with this whole thing.
I thought it Josh and I were having an honest discussion.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 21:37:41 GMT -5
Micah,
I am always impressed at your civil manners when dealing with some of the hardest matters. You always seem to stick to the scriptural issue rather then making it a personal attack. You have shown yourself to have a Christ-like attitude and also a solid scriptural understanding.
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Post by tonyholland on Oct 6, 2006 21:40:45 GMT -5
No....I reread it and can see that it was just a dicussion....I apologize as I read a part of it and overreacted to it. Just to anyone who is wondering, my last post was aimed at NO ONE in particular. Just some thoughts I was having when I responded.
I have decided that there should be a annual meeting of everyone on the board for fellowship and discussion....Most importantly, so we can rent those inflatable sumo suits so anyone with a problem with another can settle their differences in the ring
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 6, 2006 21:41:49 GMT -5
Thank you brother and I have noticed the same with you.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 6, 2006 21:46:07 GMT -5
An annual meeting? You know, the gears of my mind have been grinding for some time with the idea of an Open Air Outreach Annual Conference. We would rent a camp ground near a campus, provide lodging and food for free for attendance, have classes on the camp grounds and hands on preaching on the campus. The emailing list is over 1,000 people now. So I figure if I send out an email at least 30-40 would come and we would have a good conference.
Also Micah, someone commented today on your Atlanta Street Preaching video on YouTube:
"Your street preaching is very inspiring to my heart and I know for a fact that your boldness to preach inspires the Christians who are watching this video to do the same. Thank you for being a good example and for obeying Jesus when He tells you to preach."
And also on Rubens:
"It is mind-boggling how sinners can be so blatantly mean and hurtful, calling names, making fun, and sticking up their middle finger, yet still think that they have done no wrong. It is true that this world's definition of love is wrong. Love is not all ewy gooey and letting people get with sin. Love is calling that person's sin out so they can know they are doing wrong and will stop it."
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Post by Kerrigan on Oct 6, 2006 21:55:33 GMT -5
I thought this issue was discussed thoroughly in another post previously. As I look through this thread I don't see anything new being said. One thing I will say about signs is this: they are A-Moral in and of themselves. Signs, in and of themselves are neither immoral, nor moral. So, I have no problem with people using signs. The problem I do have is what is on them at times. We have to keep in mind, that no matter where we go...whether it is on college campuses, bar/club districts, beaches, mardi gras or homosexual parades, what is on the sign must be something that applies to everyone. Surely, even though all of these places are wicked for the most part, there are people there who are humble and just need to hear the Gospel alone. I am sure there are many more who need to hear a more harsh word because they are prideful, love their sin and hate God. But, everyone sees the sign...therein lies the problem. Therefore, if I ever create a sign of my own, I resolve to only put something on it that applies to everyone that sees it. Things like, "You Must Be Born Again To Enter The Kingdom of God", "Repent or Perish", "What If?", "Where Will You Go When You Die?", "Heaven or Hell?", Etc. I could never in good conscience put anything on a sign like, "God Loves You" or "God Abhors You", etc. It just wouldn't apply to everyone in the crowd. And even if it did, how would I know that? Do I know everyone in the crowd? Do I know the heart of every person there? No I don't.
With all of this being said, I still couldn't judge anyone who did this simply by a photo. I would have to get to know them first. Having seen more of Micah's preaching and getting to know him more through this MB, I definitely don't think that he is an "abomination." I thank God for your witness Micah. I probably wouldn't do some of the things you do, but I love you in the Lord brother. If people saw 30 second- 1 minute clips of my preaching, there is no doubt in my mind they would think bad things of me. This is my 2 cents. God Bless...
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