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Post by biblethumper on Oct 4, 2006 21:09:41 GMT -5
Micah, obviously our vocabulary is different; using the word "homo" and "f/a/g" to describe a homosexual is definately cussing; of course you'll disagree, however, that's predictable, as you support blasphemers.
Micah, the signs are wrong, the words are wrong, the photos are wrong, etc etc. To be "concerned" and say that I am starting to sound like a heathen is ludacris; I believe in preaching the Full Gospel and have not changed my message and never will.
You, on the other hand, support abominable people; I take very little weight to anything you say.
Ruben is a sham.
That's that.
As one brother said, it takes negative discernment to see what Ruben Israel is all about.
Finney, Wesley, Spurgeon, etc etc... all would be preaching TO him of they were with us today...they wouldn't be preaching WITH him.
Bank on that.
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Oct 4, 2006 23:04:00 GMT -5
Paul, I believe in preaching. I Open Air. I believe i npreaching the Gospel. I DO NOT, however, believe that we are called to make sons of hell (the unsaved) TWICE the sons of hell they were before we got there. men such as Ruben Israel are doing just that. Men such as Fred Phelps are doing just that. You cannot state that such men are doing Gospel Work. If you do, you're deceived above deception and bring treproach to the Name of Jesus Christ. Here are some things from Ruben's site... if you give approval to this trash, you need a Holy Ghost wake up call to REPENT: Umm, I don't believe I was ever mentioning anyone. I'm going to stay quiet too on these things also. biblethumper, I think you need to chill out also. I don't dare ever think that "we are called to make sons of hell (the unsaved) TWICE the sons of hell they were before we got there." I dont know Ruben Israel or Fred Phelps. I believe in the regenerating work of God in a man's heart. I believe in preaching with tears in your eyes with all your heart to men to be saved. Not as a vain man believes in a stone to turn into bread, but as a man who believes God will come and supernaturally save people as He pleases. That He will turn a God-hating, God-rebellious, dead creature, whos heart is of stone and give them the new supernatural birth. This isn't a matter of simply preaching 90% law and 10% grace. If anyone believes that, its myself, but we forget we must show the worth of Jesus Christ! Get on your faces and pray and be broken and tarry in the presence of God, not in your feelings, but in His presence and pray. Pray untill God comes down and grants you all faith to believe Him, to grant you even a tiny glimpse of the worth of Jesus Christ and when you do that, then go out into the world and show men the worth of Jesus Christ! Show a man how he is walking in darkness, how he is a enemy of God, how he dosnt seek after Him, nor wants to. How God has made the billions of stars, the suns, the earths, the galaxies and the universe and they all obey Him, the angels and demons and devils obey, but when He calls the sinner, the sinner says, "No! I won't come!" Show the man how He is an enemy of God and if he should put down his own gun, God still holds up His. Show a man how God is not like us and preach how God is nothing like us. How His ways are not ours and how He holds the entire universe in the palm of His hand. Cause them to see the worth of Jesus Christ, learn to preach the worth of Jesus Christ in light of the sinner being cutoff and as it were cause the sinner to become jealous for God and thirst for righteousness and thirst for eternal life which is to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. Then when you've done that and showned the majesty of Him, the holiness of Him, the awsomness of God, the awsomenes of Christ and the worth of Him, how He outweights the whole world, the whole universe. When you've done this and the sinner see's his barrenness, sees His lostness, sees His sin before a holy and just God, if God should be pleased, that person should be on his face before God crying and sobbing and weeping for this God. Then after all of this, thats when you can tell them the grace of God, in Jesus Christ. Thats when you can open up the glorious gospel. Thats when you can show them how a little babie, born of a virgin, was that same God who held the universe at the palm of His hand. Was the same God who called to the stars and they come, who calls to cheribums and they come. How He was on that cross and all the wrath that should fall upon them, fell upon Jesus Christ, the God who loved them so much! DONT PREACH UNLESS YOU CAN EVEN CATCH A GLIMPSE OF WHAT THIS MEANS! PLEASE DONT PREACH! YOU PREACH IN VAIN! Comon! This is what is true! This is the preaching we need! Not a formula, or a method but we need God! We need God! Let my hands perform your bidding Let my feed walk in your ways LET MY EYES SEE JESUS ONLY Let my lips speak forth your praise Paul M.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 4, 2006 23:54:43 GMT -5
In all the homosexual parades I have preached with Ruben at, I have never heard him use the word f/a/g.
Sodomites yes. Is that a biblical word, biblethumper? Yes, right out of the KJV.
Now the word homo is a cuss word? It means the same.
As far as you preaching the full gospel, I am not going to say that you don't. I am going to say that whether it is you or any one else who won't ever preach that God abhors anyone, they are not preaching the full gospel.
Bank on that.
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Post by jesussaves on Oct 5, 2006 5:54:43 GMT -5
I have to agree with Dan on Rubens preaching.I will not judge however the mans heart only his actions.We do have to be careful what we say, how we say things and the kinds of signs we display. Just because God hates sin and we all know He does does not mean it's one big free for all and you can go around saying whatever you want and doing whatever you want just to get your point across. I have kids and I would not want to walk down the street with them and have them see some of those signs.My kids thank God do not even know what some of that trash is nor will they ever be exposed to that as long as I can help it.All they need to know is that it's wrong to be a homosexual. Isn't "repent, God loves you and died for your sins" enough? Isn't it enough just to say "God can deliver you and you don't have to live that way anymore" enough? I can think of plenty of things to say to get my point across without sounding vulger or displaying vulger images. I am glad that the man preaches to the lost and the gosple however much is getting out.Hopefully he does preach the cross.I think he should keep preaching but he may suffer loss for some of the things he is saying and doing. The big problem here is that we are to be examples of Christ.It is true that we are the only Jesus some may ever see and when they look at us they immediatly think :
"This is the Jesus that I am supposed to come to???"
"This is what God is like???"
"These people spend time with God and go to church and this is finished product???"
"Is this the kind of person that I want to be like???"
"Is this the kind of God that I want to serve???"
"Is this the way God is going to talk to me???"
"I have enough problems in my life, I dont need this!"
"I can't live up to these expectations,what's the remedy? Is this the whole gosple? Where's the love and forgiveness? How do I get deliverance? I can't save myself!!!"
"Don't they understand I want to be saved but I don't know the way out???I wish they would tell me the answer and stop calling me a whore and telling me what trash I am!!!!!!!!!!!"
"I guess God hates me and there is no way out and I can't save myself so Im going home BYE!!!"
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Post by cervyy on Oct 5, 2006 6:14:08 GMT -5
Asked myself this question: "Is this the kind of person that I want to be like???"
Answer was no.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 5, 2006 7:15:53 GMT -5
In all the homosexual parades I have preached with Ruben at, I have never heard him use the word f/a/g. Sodomites yes. Is that a biblical word, biblethumper? Yes, right out of the KJV. Now the word homo is a cuss word? It means the same. As far as you preaching the full gospel, I am not going to say that you don't. I am going to say that whether it is you or any one else who won't ever preach that God abhors anyone, they are not preaching the full gospel. Bank on that. Yes, the word homo is a cuss word; you know it, and are only seeking to sugar coat Ruben's sin and your own. You're a filthy, abominable and wicked man. You're an abomination. I'm through speaking with you on this issue; you're an abomination yourself, standing with Ruben Israel and those who pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ as one whose heart is hardened, whose mouth must be stopped, who destroy homes and cause wickedness to prosper in the church through vainity and the speaking of sinful and shameful words. God has the last say, Micah. I pray that the Lord has not already turned you over to strong delusion. God help you.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 5, 2006 7:31:40 GMT -5
What a wonderful statement I have read on the SI Boards on this very issue of Ruben, God's Hatred, God's Love etc etc...this perfectly clears the matter on men like Ruben, who hold signs and then post them proudly on their "ministry sites".....
QUOTE:
We shouldn't be arguing over this. If someone is going to preach God's hatred for sinners, they ought to do it on their knees weeping buckets of tears, or they ought not do it at all. If we can stand before un-believers and tell them that God hates them with pride in our voices, then there is something wrong in our own hearts. Remember when Jesus approched Jerusalem? He didn't scream "O how My Father hates you!" He wept, and said "O Jerusalem! Jerusalem! How many times would I have gathered you under my arms as a hen does her chicks, but you would not."- Quote From JoeA
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2006 10:33:51 GMT -5
I have traveled and preached with many open air preachers. From the straight turn or burn preachers, to the street entertainers who use magic tricks and gimmicks.
My only criticism for open air preachers today is that:
1. We need more seriousness
2. We need more dependancy on the anointing if Holy Spirit
3. We need more love and compassion for sinners
4. We need more anger and hatred for sin
5. We need more knowledge of the scriptures.
6. We need much deeper prayer and fasting lives
7. We need more preaching like found in Acts.
Just my few thoughts.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 5, 2006 12:01:43 GMT -5
My only criticism for open air preachers today is that: 1. We need more seriousness A: Amen! 2. We need more dependancy on the anointing if Holy Spirit A: Amen! 3. We need more love and compassion for sinners A: Amen three times! 4. We need more anger and hatred for sin A: ? I believed that a True Christian did hate sin ? 5. We need more knowledge of the scriptures. A: Micah, you'll be proud to know that though I don;t place chapter and verse in my responses, I have 3 quaters of the NT memorized (not boasting, because anyone can do it; I'm simply saying "So much for your 'why don;t you post Scripture?' responses.... that's all I DO post, Scripturally based answers, and if I'm wrong, I'll retract. 6. We need much deeper prayer and fasting lives A: Amen! 7. We need more preaching like found in Acts. A: Amen!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 5, 2006 17:32:48 GMT -5
Just a honest warning...
If you are wrong, you are an abomination.
Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 5, 2006 17:53:53 GMT -5
Hey biblethumper don't sit here and say things like you are done speaking with me and then turn around and continue to lie and make comments to me.
It is perfectly scriptural to preach to people that God abhors them. Not all the time or in all situations of course. No one I know of does that.
Why are you bothering to tell me about how much scripture you have memorized. If you are going to make blanket statements and say certain things are not in the bible like "God Abhors You" and then I post MANY scriptures where it does then you need to humble yourself and be honest and admit you were wrong.
Whether or not you have the whole bible memorized or not does not matter if you don't understand what it says. If you are going to say something is or is not in the bible you should back up your statements with scripture.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 5, 2006 17:55:30 GMT -5
jesussaves,
Don't take your children to a homosexual parade and you won't see those signs. Those are the only places Ruben uses those signs.
Ruben knows God well enough to know what signs to use at what event.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 5, 2006 18:04:41 GMT -5
I have a thought...
Who or what do you defend? The Gospel or yourself?
If your dead, you don't need a defense. You are dead! I'm just throwing out a motive check to everyone to make sure you are set for the defense of the Gospel, not yourself.
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Post by sjn on Oct 5, 2006 18:16:11 GMT -5
I've been following this thread and I'm wondering if at this point there's any reason to continue it.
Does either side really think they're going to convince the other of their points in this way?
Once the debate becomes personal hasn't it lost all value for instruction and edification?
Once the points have been clearly made is there any need to continue to reiterate them?
Doesn't discernment come from the Holy Spirit? If that's lacking will all the debate in the world make up for it?
Steve
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Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 5, 2006 18:19:43 GMT -5
I've been following this thread and I'm wondering if at this point there's any reason to continue it. Does either side really think they're going to convince the other of their points in this way? Once the debate becomes personal hasn't it lost all value for instruction and edification? Once the points have been clearly made is there any need to continue to reiterate them? Doesn't discernment come from the Holy Spirit? If that's lacking will all the debate in the world make up for it? Steve amen!
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Oct 5, 2006 18:30:04 GMT -5
I don't know abou that, Steve. In an actual debate for the sake of debate I would say yes. But in the instance of personal edification/correction; reiteration to clarify is good. I know many people on these boards to be very teachable - who are very quick to learn valid lessons when they are presented and retract, apologize and repent when found in the wrong. I don't think we should constantly harp on one another or call every little hiccup in grammar out in rebuke, but I've seen when discussion is broached on the validity/motive of a particular post, many on these boards have been ready to be convinced.
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Post by sjn on Oct 5, 2006 18:34:07 GMT -5
I agree with you Jeff, but I think that depends on mutual respect for one another even if there's disagreement. Once it's been stated, (in a debate between assumed believers), that a person in the debate is a "filthy, abominable, and wicked man" I doubt that there's much hope of edification or correction. I could be wrong, but I thought it might help us to evaluate the value of continuing in this vein.
Steve
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Post by Jeffrey Olver on Oct 5, 2006 18:56:23 GMT -5
I see what you're saying. Unless a man is a godly man, that kind of a statement could really discourage him to continue... But in any situation with anyone involved, I can see how it could be a caution on how far to continue in the discussion.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 5, 2006 19:37:57 GMT -5
I agree with you Jeff, but I think that depends on mutual respect for one another even if there's disagreement. Once it's been stated, ( in a debate between assumed believers), that a person in the debate is a "filthy, abominable, and wicked man" I doubt that there's much hope of edification or correction. I could be wrong, but I thought it might help us to evaluate the value of continuing in this vein. Steve Let me say it again, SJN: Ruben, Micah and Fred Phelps are wicked, abominable men who hate the Church, hate the Word and hate correction. These men are spots in your love feasts, actors on a stage, mimics of the Brethren. I will never, ever, not once, ever, back down from a devil; especially ones who twist Scripture, hate the lost and promote themselves as something Biblical when in fact they turn sinners from Repentance and Godliness with their wicked attempts at "Gospel Preaching". Such men are vile, unholy, unsanctified and ruthless in their efforts at subverting the Brethren. As for this debate, you are correct; it is over.
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 5, 2006 19:58:44 GMT -5
I agree with you Steve and Josh.
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Post by evanschaible on Oct 5, 2006 20:25:07 GMT -5
Yes, the word homo is a cuss word; you know it, and are only seeking to sugar coat Ruben's sin and your own. You're a filthy, abominable and wicked man. You're an abomination. I'm through speaking with you on this issue; you're an abomination yourself, standing with Ruben Israel and those who pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ as one whose heart is hardened, whose mouth must be stopped, who destroy homes and cause wickedness to prosper in the church through vainity and the speaking of sinful and shameful words. God has the last say, Micah. I pray that the Lord has not already turned you over to strong delusion. God help you. Dan, You are going way to far with this. I love you brother, but this is rediculous. Micah is a great brother. For you to say these things is rediculous, rash, unreasonable, and I believe you have spoken out of utter and total ignorance. I know Micah, and I know Micah knows GOD, and I know you dont know what you are talking about. Brother, what is the point of carrying this on and just adding more people to your list of those who you say are, "abominable and wicked"? I say this lovingly brother as I fear you are going off the deep end with this. ------------------------------------------------- Micah, I love you and keep preaching brother. Are you going to Jesse's wedding? --Evan
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 5, 2006 20:27:10 GMT -5
I hadn't thought of it. Where is it going to be held at?
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Post by evanschaible on Oct 5, 2006 20:29:36 GMT -5
Tyler, TX. ( David Ravenhill is officiating - just for some incentive ;D )
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Post by jesussaves on Oct 5, 2006 21:10:00 GMT -5
Amen Evan, Micah is a great brother.I think enough has been said and we just need to let these things work themselves out.All things work for good to those who love God.I understand alot of what Dan is saying but I think it has gone too far.God knows how to bring correction to His own if correcton is needed.Now it's just time to pray about it and leave it in God's hands and it will all work itself out in time.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2006 21:24:59 GMT -5
Dan,
Micah and Ruben are great brothers. I know them personally. You are going too far. Just like Patrick, you can't seem to be able to disagree with someone without calling them "abominable" or "of the devil".
You and Patrick seem to be extremists who are quick to judge and condemn someone harshly.
You need to be careful.
I think both you and Patrick need to be slow to speak and quick to listen. Because you both are so quick to speak and condemn.
As Josh posted the scripture, becareful that you do not condemn the just or you become an abomination.
You should be able to debate the "issue" without attacking the person.
But just like Patrick, rather then scripturally debating the issue, you just go for personal insults and attacks.
What always impresses me about Micah is how he always gives a scriptural defense for his beliefs and actions.
We need more people like Micah.
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Post by Paul Mcgrade on Oct 5, 2006 21:50:44 GMT -5
thats like so cool that David Ravenhill is officating the wedding! Thats like not just cool but SUPER DUPER cool. Wow what a honor that is, the son of Mr. Leonard Ravenhill! Wowo
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2006 22:01:32 GMT -5
Yes David is a good friend of mine. Krista and I just had lunch with David and his wife today.
It is an honor!
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 5, 2006 22:15:05 GMT -5
EDIT: Jesse, I'm referring to the preaching this trash at homosexual parades; and don't believe for a moment that I believe you when you say he doesn;t preach a "God hates you" message.He stands with his own friends and lead sthem while THEY hold the signs.
Your statement was a little misleading; he stands with, preaches LITERALLY side by side with, those who hold them.
Micah supports it.
He could preach the Gospel in 100 other places; it's this yearly event which shows he's wicked and abominable.
Seriously, give me a break here.
Condoning this stuff is foolish.
I'll close with this:
God is Love (1 John 4:8)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (1 John 4:7-11)
"We love him, because he first loved us." (1st John 4:19)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 5, 2006 22:20:40 GMT -5
Dan,
Ruben Israel has preached more John 3:16 and more about God's love then you have.
For the past, 20 years I believe, he has gone to the NFL with a John 3:16 banner and have reached millions of people with it.
You have the wrong idea of Ruben. He doesn't believe in "God hates you banners". He believes in "God hates sin" banners and "God abhors sinners" banners, but not "God hates you" banners.
He preaches the new-birth, he preaches Jesus Christ, he preaches heaven and hell, he preaches about sin and the Savior.
It makes me sick to my stomach to see Christians condemn God's preachers.
The problem is that you haven't met Ruben or heard him preach.
Notice how it's the preachers who have met him and know him that say that he is a good preacher. But it's you and Patrick, who have never met him or known him, that are quick to wrongfully judge and condemn him.
Ruben has preached more John 3:16 then possibly all the open air preachers on this board combined!
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Post by josh on Oct 5, 2006 23:33:56 GMT -5
We need more people like Micah. I would disagree with that. I have seen the clips of him preaching online, and recently at an open air evangelism training conference we used them to show people how NOT to preach. The clips that I have seen are disgraceful, and full of hate.
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