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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 29, 2006 21:31:35 GMT -5
Heckling Crowd:Even Children Can Preach!Silly SignThis heckler gave us the finger for hours upon hours for two days in a row!Brother Eli preaching to the crowdCalling Sinners To RepentA Large Crowd Attended Our Street MeetingHere are some videos from the Georgia Conference.I was one of the first preachers to preach on the campus, so the crowds here are not as large as in the latter videos: Myself Addressing the Crowdwww.youtube.com/watch?v=WiV_NOp_YlEThe crowd was LARGE and WILD before brother Jim took control. Preachers would get up in front of the crowd, spout off some scriptures, while the crowd was just wild and crazy. But as soon as Brother Jim got up there, he knew exactly how to take control. Brother Jim Part One:www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7EgG_9rwfEBrother Jim Part Two:www.youtube.com/watch?v=QblGRM9Xu6wHere's one of the message boards favorite preachers, RUBEN ISRAEL, speaking to the students about needing a new heart and the Savior. www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGHWdQYbSNUHere is Brother Todd on the streets outside a football game. What amazes me about Brother Todd is the amount of scriptures he has memorized. He constantly is quoting scriptures and telling the crowd CHAPTER and VERSE. It's great. Brother Todd:www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzZjiyPza48Also, here is a video from a house meeting that I preached to about a year and a half ago. I spoke on the anointing of God and it's need for open air preaching. www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9UYhPIu8k
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 29, 2006 22:07:59 GMT -5
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Post by jesussaves on Sept 29, 2006 22:55:06 GMT -5
Why would Ruben say to those women that they are taking money away from crack Wh0res? I just saw some women sitting down listening to him preach.Why are they being called wh0res? Did I miss something???
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 29, 2006 22:58:38 GMT -5
I think he was talking about the problem of fornication on the campus. I don't recall that he called anyone a "wh0re" but only talked about "crack wh0res" indirectly.
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Post by jonathanhulewicz on Sept 30, 2006 0:33:30 GMT -5
I found these really encouraging.
Keep up the good work!
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Post by oap001 on Sept 30, 2006 17:25:29 GMT -5
I wanted to make a few statements here. I am viewing the videos as I have time. First off...I really like Jim Gilles. I think he is funny and Witty. He is a good campus preacher,..even if I don't agree with his doctrine. I think that the kids get something out of his clever debates.
A while back Jim was arrested up here. I was reviewing the case and from the news paper articles and the police statements and even the civil suit documents, I thought that Jim was a nut. But then I got onto his web page and started viewing him and I also came into some other information about the campus that he was arrested on. And I learned that his rights were violated and that he didn't deserve the treatment that he was given. It was clearly the police that were mistaken. However, the use of launquage...and it's still unclear what he said. Could be con strewed as fighting words. So I understand Jim and others like him but in a PC envirement...they sure won't and if one uses fighting words or even for the sake of argument it can be implyed he used them. Then the police risk no liability for arresting him. It's called qualified immunityand it is granted to police by the court when they decide that a reasonable officer would have acted in a similar manor. His suit apparently is on appeal. Just food for thought..don't give them an opportunity to arrest you and get away with it.
In regards to Ruben....I'm still viewing the tapes..and I don't think I would use his visual aids. Consider this...I have professional friends. I tell them when such and such.. open air preacher shows up..to be kind to them.. they are legitimate and just seek to preach the word...don't bust on them. So when I say these things my reputation is on the line as well. I want to be proved right and I think I am.
Would I say the same thing about Ruben if I knew he was in the area? No..not with the signs (God abhores you) and the visual aids. I would protect his right to free speech...but I couldn't take it any further.
It's important what people think about you..you don't want people to say, "a Christian did what"?
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Post by oap001 on Sept 30, 2006 21:41:06 GMT -5
The fighting-words doctrine was first articulated in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 (1942). Chaplinsky was convicted of violating a New Hampshire statute that prohibited the use of offensive, insulting language toward persons in public places after making several inflammatory comments to a city official. The Court, in upholding the statute as constitutional, set down those famous words:
There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words — those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.
QUALIFIED IMMUNITY - The defense of qualified immunity protects "government officials . . . from liability for civil damages insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known." Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818 (1982). The rule of qualified immunity " `provides ample support to all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law.' " Burns v. Reed, 500 U.S. 478, 494-95 (1991) (quoting Malley v. Briggs, 475 U.S. 335, 341 (1986)). "Therefore, regardless of whether the constitutional violation occurred, the officer should prevail if the right asserted by the plaintiff was not `clearly established' or the officer could have reasonably believed that his particular conduct was lawful."
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 30, 2006 22:53:32 GMT -5
I like brother Jim too. His style is unique.
Believe it or not, but Brother Jim has been arrested some 32 times for preaching for Jesus. And that's not in China, that's America!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 30, 2006 23:56:35 GMT -5
pachristianpatriot,
Recently someone else said, "You know, I really don't like that Jim Gilles guy. But I love Ruben Israel!"
Now others are saying, "I really don't like that Ruben Israel guy. But I like Jim Gilles!"
You know what I think? I think that God likes them both! Each are different. Each are unique. And God can use each of them.
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Post by oap001 on Oct 1, 2006 0:06:54 GMT -5
pachristianpatriot, Recently someone else said, "You know, I really don't like that Jim Gilles guy. But I love Ruben Israel!" Now others are saying, "I really don't like that Ruben Israel guy. But I like Jim Gilles!" You know what I think? I think that God likes them both! Each are different. Each are unique. And God can use each of them. I think your right. From my perspective..try and see it my way. I don't have anything against Ruben... Right now I am speeking to my co-workers and building support for open air preaching and such. Some on the job evangelism..as you may. Consider how hard it would be for me to speak to a bunch of unsaved police officers about Ruben. How does one explain that?? It's almost impossible...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 1, 2006 0:08:49 GMT -5
Ruben has helped me more then anyone else on how to talk with police. Rubens a professional at it. He knows how to quickly get the police on your side and how to get the police to let you continue preaching rather then arrest you.
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Post by oap001 on Oct 1, 2006 0:19:19 GMT -5
Maybe so...but consider this. Your all being watched...I mean everyone is watching to see what you will say and do. Mayors...cops...students..college administrators. They look for any slight reason to say your either breaking the law or that your a hater. Ruben is probably a cool guy...but if their going to say anything at all about you guys..let it be that you said something Godly.
We don't realy get many open air preachers at all in the north east. The ones that are around are known. In fact..I'm known as being a Christian. Remember they tried to fire me after I got saved. Guys at work laugh at gay jokes. I don't.......their watching me.
It's a very serious commitment to the Lord. Every word......
How would it be if we got word Ruben was comming to my town. And management asked me..hey your the Christian...is this guy on th level? I'de be in there for hours explaining it..but I would try. Don't think they would buy it. You follow me.....
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Post by messengermicah on Oct 1, 2006 12:37:53 GMT -5
christianpatriot,
You would not believe the rapport Ruben has developed with local police in so many areas over the years. They phone him to ask him if he is coming, ask him if he needs assistance, etc. In Chicago, (one example of many), the police establish a separate pen for Ruben and his team to preach. We have about 15 officers standing right in front of us.
I really appreciate many street preachers, but I think Ruben would identify more with your regular, common, working, everyday guy than any other street preacher.
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Post by oap001 on Oct 1, 2006 14:51:57 GMT -5
I agree that most cops only wish that they could say those things. Remember that most cops are unsaved....especially in Chicago. The real issue isan't getting away with questionable launquage. The issue is piblic assess by those who preach the Gospel. Not getting arrested for using fighting words. Simply being allowed to preach in public.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 7:33:52 GMT -5
Interesting posts on SI from Pat (Christking) and others which show the alternative to what's happening, showing that Ruben Israel is not of God, as I had suspected, seen and know to be true, as do many other Brethren. Regardless of Jesse, Miles, Evan, Eli or the Pope... those who follow this man are falling into the ditch. GET OUT OF THIS GARBAGE Jesse! For the most part, your preaching is quite edifying! I fear that in a few short years, however, you're going to turn into another Ruben Israel, and possibly take others with you, such as Evan, Miles, Eli etc etc. Guys, you may say this is all "persecution", but is it? Take time to sit before the Lord in stillness and reflection. No one is saying that you need to compromise the message. What they are saying is that you ARE compromising the Ministry by associating with such men as Ruben Israel. I feared I may have been wrong on Ruben! I fear, however, that I'm NOT wrong. The Body of Christ corporately sees the wickedness of Ruben Israel; why can you guys not see it? ____________________________ From SI: It is sad hear jesse speak of Ruben in such a way. Ruben Israel obeyjesus.net/aa.htmRuben’s Website www.officialstreetpreachers.com/homonews%20updates.htmand his banners (you need to go about 3/4 of the way down the page to see the banners) www.officialstreetpreachers.com/banner/BANNER501.htmHere are some videos that Jesse himself made and posted of Jim and Ruben preaching with him at the same campus on the same day. Ruben www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGHWdQYbSNUJim Gills www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7EgG_9rwfENow the level of discernment that it takes to realize that this type of behavior and preaching is ANTI-scriptural and ANTI-Jesus is almost none. I actually think you would have to have a zero or even negative level of discernment to realize the horror and shame that such men bring to Jesus. The sad thing is that not only does Jesse condone, encourage and promote such men and there preaching, but it seems as though he himself is heading down that road. This is very, very sad. We should continue to pray for Jesse and that the Lord will wake him up to his error and the path he is sadly heading down. Now, here's one observer's thoughts after visiting Ruben's site: I just had the sad occasion to view not only the website of Ruben Israel, which in itself is totally depraved, but also the ugly ugly charade of this man "preaching" on Georgia Tech, which is the same place I viewed the other video I commented on. This is absolutely depressing, disheartening and totally grievous. Ruben Israel should be ashamed of himself that he is taking not only the Name of Israel, but that he is perverting the Gospel to such an extent to drive these lost kids EVEN further from Jesus. Would to God that this mans tongue cleave to the roof of his mouth, and he would still walk around with his signs and sandwich boards. Some of the words he uses on his website I won't even quote on this dear annointed website that Greg labours over in the Name of Jesus, the names that this man Ruben calls people. and to think that this man is a "mentor" to Jesse? Lord have mercy...please. It's worse than I thought. Jesse, if you're reading I BEG you in the Name of Jesus, get as far away from this man as you can...please. Please re-read the "Life of Brainerd" again, like you did a few years back...please, hear me. I BEG YOU in the Name of Jesus. bartle ps...I can't even comment on Giles, this is just bad, the devil is cunning, but thank you for sharing this Patrick. ____________________________ Bartle, I agree with you 100% on this one, and the lord knows that we sometimes don't see eye to eye Jesse, I saw a few of those Reuben videos and his website, and would encourage you to stay as far away from him as I would Benny Hinn. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN THE WORLD, that anyone could EVER, EVER, EVER justify what he is doing as scriptural. I will pray for him, that he will seek after christ, which he is obviously not doing. Jesse, Praise God that you Open Air preach, I have read your testimony, written you a PM encouraging you to come out to VA to open Air preach with me, and have left you a phone message several months back showing my support for you, so I love you brother, but we need to keep each other accountable for our actions, and on this one, I would have to agree with Bartle. Remember, any oldtime preacher such as Wesley can say what they want, but we need to preach 100% Law, and 100% Grace, and to always remember that the greatest commandment is LOVE. How did Jesus show love... thats what we need to be looking at. And always in context. Look at the woman at the Well, and compare that to the hypocrite pharisee's. God Bless Boomatt __________________________________ Jesse, preach to your friends, they need Jesus, i could not stand their web site, they mask their hatred with a pseudo-christianity. preach to them pray for them. how can they use such foul language and call themselves children of God.. it smelled of neo-Nazism.. "out of the heart the mouth speaks" ,i wonder Jesse do they have a problem with their language? do they pray for homosexuals? Jesse if you love these men and they are your friends please correct them.. love andy ___________________________________ I don't post much on this site. I'm not quick to give my opinions, I dedicate my time on sermonindex to listen and learn from these great preachers here who have experience, unction, and maturity in the Lord. But I'm afraid if I stay silent today I'm going to burst. First of all, let me say this. I watched some of the videos of brother Jesse and found there to be no cross in his preaching. He mentioned Jesus, but there was no Gospel. I find this to be a major flaw in the preaching. Sinners are watching these videos and it may be that they are being convicted of sin, but they are not being shown the way. Apostolic preaching is centered on the Cross of Christ, and expounds on its meaning and significance, as opposed to just giving vague references to Jesus. And another thing that disturbed me was that photographer taking like a million pictures while brother Jesse was preaching. I know the preaching is videotaped to build up and edify other believers, but there seems to be no reason to take so many pictures...it gives a very bad witness, an appearance of pride and vanity, and may be a stumbling block to nonbelievers. And to Brother Bartle, I just don't understand. How can you ignore so much Scripture? I don't agree with all that Jesse does, but he pointed out so much Scripture in favor of conviction of sin preaching, and you flat out ignored it. I'm disturbed by some of the things you said. Quote: He did not argue with them, but thru His love opened their minds to the Gospel... Jesus only gave the Gospel to those whose hearts were ready to receive Grace. The rich young ruler was "turned off" from following Jesus, as were so many of His disciples in John chapter 6. But the Lord knew from the beginning who was going to believe and who wasn't. If He starts a work in someone's heart, regardless of who it is that is preaching the message, He will finish it. It seems you are unwilling to accept the fact that the Lord could use someone like Jesse Morell to save a sinner. Quote: these sinners are sick with the fever of sin, and all you do with this ministry of confrontation is to raise their temperature and turn them from the Balm of Grace. Do you think the Lord sees sin as a 'fever'? Sin is utter rebellion against the Lord Almighty. Choosing to do what you know in your heart is wrong. The Puritans would descibe sin as complete lunacy. Think about it--what craziness it is to defy the Omnipotent Creator of the Heavens and the Earth! As Paul Washer said (something to the likes of this), God commanded the stars to stay in the heavens...and they did! He told the mountains to rise out of the grounds...and they did! And now He turns to human beings and says "Obey Me"...and they refuse! It is no small thing to defy the living God. What I find so distressing is that you describe hatred towards the Holy One of Israel as a 'sickness' from which poor sinners need to be 'cured.' I cannot describe this with any other word other than 'humanism.' I could pull this out of the pages of the Purpose Driven Life. To be honest, I did not expect to find this in sermonindex. Quote: Throw that video camera away, buy a pail, a sponge, some towels, liquid soap, get on your knees in the public square, and wash some feet, and then you might start to weep for the lost of a dead and dying world. Scriptural support, please? If you notice in John 13, Jesus washes His disciples' feet. He was demosntrating how we should be servants to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does He go around washing sinners' feet. And neither is this important aspect of evangelism found in the book of Acts. Jesus, the apostles, the prophets all preached the Truth in love, with the incredible annointing and power of the Holy Spirit. The only sure way to weep for the lost is to feel the way the Lord does when sinners offend Him. What should break our hearts even more than the fact that these people are headed for an eternal hell where the worm doesn't die and the fire isn't quenched is the fact that they are not glorifying this Holy God whom we serve. That should cause us to lose sleep. That should cause us to spend entire nights agonizing in prayer. Quote: Show them that you love them, that you care, like Jesus cares to know them by name, watch what happens, all these people want to be is to be loved. Human love is fleeting, Jesus love is forever. Show them Jesus' love and watch what happens. Reflect His light, not the light of the fires of hell and watch what happens. Again, this screams 'humanism.' God's love is not some kind of sentimental feeling as you imply. God's incredible love and mercy towards horrible sinners like us is unfathomable to the human mind. So great a mystery is it that even angels have tried to look into it. He didn't have to save us but He did. His ultimate act of love is found in the cross, and in order to understand the cross of Christ, people need to understand their sin, and the 'fires of hell.' And another thing, have you noticed that most of our theology about hell comes from Jesus Himself? He speaks more on this subject than any other person in the Bible combined. He knew what hell was like and loved us enough to warn us about it, and so should we. Our preaching needs to be done with tears, showing sinners that we care about them and their salvation. In one of Paul Washer's fiery and convicting sermons he tells the congregation, "If I could tell you all this while hugging you I would." This is the impression sinners need to get from us. I say these things out of love, brother. Please don't just ignore the hard truths of Scripture because there are some out there who abuse it. God bless. Isaiah 64 ____________________________
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Post by eric on Oct 3, 2006 8:54:38 GMT -5
This is absolutely depressing, disheartening and totally grievous. Ruben Israel should be ashamed of himself that he is taking not only the Name of Israel, but that he is perverting the Gospel to such an extent to drive these lost kids EVEN further from Jesus. Would to God that this mans tongue cleave to the roof of his mouth, and he would still walk around with his signs and sandwich boards. My wife and I hear this all the time from 'christians' referring to anything from one2one's to open air preaching to banners: "That method of evangelism pushes people away from God." Obviously, many people will be pushed away because they love their sin. My question is: Is it possible, scripturally, to actually drive someone away from Christ, by preaching against sin and only Jesus, for any reason other than the obvious "they love their sin"? I don't want to hear of someone's experience of "my friend didn't like what Miles preached and now he will never become a Christian." I am looking for a scripture that supports this mindset. My response to this mindset is that God's Word never returns void however it is preached.
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Post by victorialewis on Oct 3, 2006 9:18:05 GMT -5
I'm curious, also.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 11:27:44 GMT -5
This is absolutely depressing, disheartening and totally grievous. Ruben Israel should be ashamed of himself that he is taking not only the Name of Israel, but that he is perverting the Gospel to such an extent to drive these lost kids EVEN further from Jesus. Would to God that this mans tongue cleave to the roof of his mouth, and he would still walk around with his signs and sandwich boards. My wife and I hear this all the time from 'christians' referring to anything from one2one's to open air preaching to banners: "That method of evangelism pushes people away from God." Obviously, many people will be pushed away because they love their sin. My question is: Is it possible, scripturally, to actually drive someone away from Christ, by preaching against sin and only Jesus, for any reason other than the obvious "they love their sin"? I don't want to hear of someone's experience of "my friend didn't like what Miles preached and now he will never become a Christian." I am looking for a scripture that supports this mindset. My response to this mindset is that God's Word never returns void however it is preached. Sorry, Eric, but cndoning such ambominable men as Ruben Israel will only serve to squander your relationship with God. Giving a voice of encouragement to such wicked men only allows such wicked men to continue in their wickedness. I'll answer your question with a question: The Mormons who Open Air (yes, they open air!)... are they doing the Work of God?
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 11:39:33 GMT -5
PS: To associate with men who call homosexuals "gay", f/a/g" etc etc and to speak vileness on your own site (just go to Ruben's "ministry" site) is a tragedy, Eric.
God forbid that men such as Ruben Israel should be called "ministers".
you say, "Show me SCRIPTURE".
I say the same; show me where God used such (1) methods and (2) men.
If you can, I'll retract my words...
If anyone can shwo me an Open Air/One2One example where a Minister says, "God hates/Abhors You!" I'll eat my words.
If you can show me where Jesus spoke of homosexuals as "homos" and f/a/g/s/ I'll retract my words.
If you can show me where Jesus gave an example of ANY of this, I'll retract my words.
Unfortunately, Eric, you can't.
The man doesn;t preach the Gospel because he doesn't obey the Gospel in showing compassion to the lost; NO! calling a homosexual a homo or f/a/g is NOT compassion!
Don;t tell me that Ruben "loves people" and that apart from the signs he's "a great man of God".
Bogus.
He's wicked.
He's abominable.
All who support such a filthy man are themselves partakers in his open rebellion against the Holy God of Scripture.
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
Ephesians 5:6-8 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.Be not ye therefore partakers with them.For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light
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Post by eric on Oct 3, 2006 12:50:33 GMT -5
biblethumper, Read my post again please. It is not about Ruben. And I did not intend it to be an attack at your post. It is a question about whether this statement that people so often throw at many preachers (lets use Ray Comfort as an example since I think we both agree that he is solid) and whether or not it is possible, biblically, to drive people away from Christ. I posted because if there is mention in scripture about how we ought to be extremely careful of what we preach to not drive people away, then we ought to know about it and practice it! Agreed? eric
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 13:01:36 GMT -5
Definately agreed!
Now, let me present an example to show that it is definately plausible to believe that we can drive people away from Christ:
Dying Homosexual Says: "I need help...I saw a sign that said that God hates me.... can you, as a Christian tell me of this is true? Does God hate me?"
Misguided Christian: Yeah.. God hates homos; and since you're a homo, God sure does hate you!"
Now, here's what a Christian will say:
True Christian: Friend, first, whoever was holding that sign was misgudied! I want you to know that not only does God love you, but He loves you so much you can be set free from the bondage of homosexuality! Not only that, but Jesus came to TAKE AWAY your sin...ALL sin! Sin has seperated you from God; God loved you enough to send His Only begotten Son to die a Sinner's Death in YOUR place! Under the Law, you're condemned to eternal death and seperation from a Holy God... but if you'll turn from your wickedness and call out to Jesus Christ, you can be instantly saved, healed and delivered!"
Eric, can you see the point here?
People CAN turn sinners FURTHER from Christ than they already are.
Jesus said that the Pharisees make their converts TWICE the sons of hell.
is it any different today?
Are we, as Ministers, making our listeners TWICE the sons of hell?
Is it possible to "turn a sinner off"?
Jesse would say no.
I would have said no.
Jesus says otherwise.
Matthew 23:13-15
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater d**nation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 3, 2006 13:16:57 GMT -5
I've been pondering the "turning people off from Jesus" concept for a while.
I think what I've concluded is that you can turn people off from yourself. In the way that you present yourself, in your demeanor and presentation, you can turn people away from wanting to listen to you.
But as far as turning people off from Jesus, doesn't this stem up from the presupposition that a sinner is in a neutral position?
Jesus said we are either for Him or against Him. I think that often when we preach, and a sinner gets angry, it simply reveals that they are already off, that they already hate God. They hated God and loved sin before we showed up on campus.
I mean seriously, how can I turn off a radio that is already off? If sinners are already seperated from God, if they already love sin and hate God, if they are already off, how can I turn them off from Jesus?
Now like I said, we can turn them off from ourselves. But can we really turn them off from the real Jesus, so long as we are presenting the real Jesus?
Any thoughts?
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 13:17:59 GMT -5
I've been pondering the "turning people off from Jesus" concept for a while. I think what I've concluded is that you can turn people off from yourself. In the way that you present yourself, in your demeanor and presentation, you can turn people away from wanting to listen to you. But as far as turning people off from Jesus, doesn't this stem up from the presupposition that a sinner is in a neutral position? Jesus said we are either for Him or against Him. I think that often when we preach, and a sinner gets angry, it simply reveals that they are already off, that they already hate God. They hated God and loved sin before we showed up on campus. I mean seriously, how can I turn off a radio that is already off? If sinners are already seperated from God, if they already love sin and hate God, if they are already off, how can I turn them off from Jesus? Now like I said, we can turn them off from ourselves. But can we really turn them off from the real Jesus, so long as we are presenting the real Jesus? Any thoughts? Jesse, this is not what Scripture says. Scripture says you can turn them off from the Kingdom of GOD; not "ourselves". Matthew 23:13-15 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater d**nation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. NOTE: Ironically, scribes were experts...in the Law.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 3, 2006 13:21:53 GMT -5
This was my latest post on SermonIndex:
I've only been a Christian a little over five years.
I have only been preaching open air for about five years.
I have only read the Old Testament 5 times.
I have only read the New Testament 15 times.
I do pray but sometimes it's only an hour or two a day. And I fast very little.
I am still young and still growing.
I know that many of you on these boards have been Christians longer, preaching longer, and know more bible then me.
But I'm not entirely unlearned. I do have a lot of zeal, but am not entirely without knowledge. I have a personal library that consists of over a thousand books. And I read them often. And they are not modern day trashy books, they are classics.
But in my few years of Christianity, and with my limited knowledge, I am still very discouraged at the amount of disunity there is in the body of Christ.
I used to be very hard on preachers that I didn't agree with completely. But I have become a bit more ecumenical.
I personally do like Ruben Israel and Jed Smock. Others do not. I know both personally. I also like Ray Comfort. Many do not. I also like Michael Brown. Many do not. I also like Leonard Ravenhill. Many do not. I also like Ron Luce. Many do not. I also like Winkie Pratney. Many do not. Some do not like David Wilkerson. But I do. I also like John Wesley and Charles Finney. Many do not. I also like Charles Spurgeon and Jonathon Edwards. Many do not.
Some men today call these men heretics, other call them heros. But I believe they all love the Lord, even if I don't agree 100% with them.
Take even Benny Hinn for example. I constantly hear people criticize him. And biblically, I belive he has said some wrong things. But I have also asked men who personally know him what they think. I have spoken to Ron Luce with Teen Mania Ministries and Winkie Pratney with YWAM, who are both personal friends of mine.. These men both know Benny and both say, "While I may disagree with some of what he has said, I do believe he loves God and has a relationship with Jesus."
So my heart is just grieved at the amount of disunity in the body of Christ.
I know that David Ravenhill (a personal friend of mine) will not preach with Andrew Strom (also a good personal friend of mine). David and Andrew do not preach together because of what Andrew has said about Michael Brown. Now Andrew Strom does not like Michael Brown and also will not preach with Ruben Israel. Ruben Israel will preach with Both Jed Smock, Jim Gilles and John Duncan. But Jim Gilles and John Duncan will not preach with Jed Smock. And on and on the division goes. It never ends. It just keeps going.
I just try to stay out of all this division and simply focus on reaching the lost for Jesus Christ.
Some really do not like Ron Luce, but I do. They criticize him for using Christian Rock bands at Aquire the Fire. Some do not like Winkie Pratney and call him a heretic, but I like him. They say he is a heretick because he's moral government, denies original sin, believes in perfection, and is an open theist. Some do not like Jed or Ruben or Duncan or Gilles, because of their evangelism methods, but I do like them. Some do not like Andrew Strom because of his criticism of other preachers, but I do like him. Some do not like Michael Brown because of what happend at Brownsville, but I do like him. Some do not like Ray Comfort because he's on TBN but doesn't preach against Duplantis and Copeland. But I like Ray a lot. Some do not like The Great News Network and say terrible things about them because they use magic tricks and give away money in street ministry. But I greatly respect the work that they do.
So that's just my heart.
I'm just so tired of the criticism and division because it never seems to end.
Wesley and Whitefield were divided for many years but then reconciled. And I agree with Wesley, "If your heart is the same as my heart, take my hand." That is my philosphy for ministry.
You can disagree with me, that's fine. But just make sure that you love God, serve God, and seek and save the lost.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 13:24:09 GMT -5
Odd... I was JUST reading this on SI; I was about to copy and paste. You've already got to it It's quite a heart moment, and touching.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 13:25:55 GMT -5
Could you still explain what Jesus meant here, though, brother? For real; not for the sake of argument, but in light of your own comments:
Matthew 23:13-15
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater d**nation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 3, 2006 13:40:05 GMT -5
Well like I said I've been thinking about this whole concept for a long time and haven't figured it all out yet.
That's a good scripture you brought up. I now have a new one to think about.
They obviously did not go to Jesus, not did they encourage people t go to Jesus (are not entering to go in).
When I preach, I encourage people to come to Jesus, and I have come to Jesus myself, but I still have people say, "You are turning people off. Don' t talk about sin. Don't talk about hell. Just tell them how much God loves them."
Still thinking about this whole concept.
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Post by biblethumper on Oct 3, 2006 14:02:28 GMT -5
True, they aren't pointing people to Jesus in the Scriptures quoted; however, you must admit that regardless of what they were doing, they WERE stopping people from entering into the Kingdom of God, which itself shows it is definately possible.
I was with you; you can;t turn people off.
Then, the Scriptures quoted were quickened to my mind; and I'm also going to have to dig deeper.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Oct 3, 2006 14:14:09 GMT -5
I would say that we are hindering people, if we are not preaching Jesus.
But if you are preaching Jesus, the real Jesus, and talking about sin, righteousness, and judgment, with a heart of love, and you are moved with compassion, when people reject Jesus, it's not because you turned them off, but because they are already off, and they try to use you as an excuse as to why they won't come to Heaven. By saying, "If people like you are in Heaven, I don't want to go there." But the truth is, they don't want to go to Heaven because God is there, and they hate God.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Oct 3, 2006 17:23:55 GMT -5
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. They were not not focusing on the right thing. The weightier matters are law, judgment, mercy and faith. Do these outward things you are you saved... I see them as having that mentality.
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