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Post by evanschaible on Mar 16, 2006 19:55:41 GMT -5
Christian perfection is not sinless perfection as many have, it seems, come to understand it. No man can say he is sinlessly perfect, "he that says he has no sin decieveth himself, and the truth is not in him" Once you are born again does that mean you will never sin? Absoltlely not. Sin is rare, granted, but not at all impossible.
I once heard an illustration that talked of a boat, I think it was brother Ravenhill who used this. He used to travel across the atlantic in wartime and there was minesthat would float to the surface in the modst of storms. With minds round about this boat as it travelled there was the definite possibility that this boat could sink, however at the same time there was the possibility that it wouldnt sink.
That is an accurate biblical illustration. It is possible for us to not sin, but it also possible for us to sin. I most likely sound like an ignoramous to most of you seems how I cannot recite doctrine, but bear with me.
Christian perfection is not sinless perfection because not one of us can claim to have no sin. Brother Jesse expressed the doctrine of sinless perfection, brother Jesse, are you sinless since conversion? If so please, tell me your secret, If not, How can you preach something you have not experienced?
But if we knock off the word sinless, and tack on the word Christian than we can realize that this perfection spoken of is a restoration of the perfect unity between God and man through the person of Jesus Christ.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 16, 2006 23:14:49 GMT -5
I think you need to go back and read more carefully what Jesse, myself and others wrote before you come and accuse us of saying something we did not. I personally read a post by Jesse that was the opposite of what you are saying he said. Please go read through those posts more carefully.
No one ever claimed to be sinless since conversion. 1 John 3:8 and 1 John 5:18 say born again people do not sin. Please go back and read everything we discussed in previous threads and then if you think there is further discussion necessary we will take it up again. Right now you are misrepresenting our views on this subject.
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Post by evanschaible on Mar 18, 2006 16:47:35 GMT -5
It wasnt an accusation, there was no room for a question mark. I was simply clearing up what some like the "this is stupid" guy obviously take at face value and say, "these guys think they are sinless". But it was an honest question from my heart simply because I see sinless perfection and wonder what some believe. I have never seen a post in this but I will look. Forgive me for offending if I did.
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Post by Rick on Mar 19, 2006 20:21:43 GMT -5
Evan, you won't get a straight answer from anyone when you ask them the question "Have you never sinned since being a convert" they will most likely comeback with the question to you such as this... "What sin is it that you cannot give up" Which always brings you back to the original question you asked...that most will not answer because if they answered honestly they would show people that the doctrine they preach is not attainable by themselves! Wesley himself, said he was cautious to not use the term sinless when dealing with perfection, and some today might agree with Wesley in some area's but ask the question of those in the holiness movement, sinless perfection or whatever you want to name it today, if they have had no sin since being saved and most will not answer. If they do answer and say that since they have been saved they have not sinned they are a liar and the truth is not in them. I met a guy when in Minnesota doing outreach with Todd Friel and they guy actually said he has not sinned in 4 years since being saved, we watched him debate with many people, but at one point he called this lady a fool (sister in the Lord) with a not so nice of tone, when asked if he had just sinned he said no...it is the truth! LOL Our sinful minds devise ways in which we can "justify" our sin that we are right. There was only one without sin and that was Christ. By the way Wesley's view of perfection was different then finney's, Years ago John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that sinless perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although his "sinless perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of sinless perfection. Charles Finney differs slightly on this issue in that he doesn't excuse sins of ignorance. And he furthermore has taken the stand that one loses their salvation every time they sin. Thus under Finney's theology one not only cannot claim to have achieved sinless perfection, for how would they know they've overcome the sins they are ignorant of, but also no one could ever claim that they are even saved, since how would they know whether they hadn't lost their salvation through a sin of ignorance? But I have show elsewhere that Finney has not been consistent in his theology and most Holiness types defer to Wesley. So I'll deal with Wesley. from here www.bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 19, 2006 22:42:30 GMT -5
I don't commit sin. Anyone who commits sin is not saved. If a person commits sin they are of the devil and on their way to hell. 1 John 3:8-9, 5:18, Hebrews 10:26-31, Matthew 7:21-23.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 19, 2006 22:50:18 GMT -5
I don't commit sin. Anyone who commits sin is not saved. If a person commits sin they are of the devil and on their way to hell. 1 John 3:8-9, 5:18, Hebrews 10:26-31, Matthew 7:21-23. What is your definition of sin then Micah?
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 19, 2006 22:56:04 GMT -5
Disobedience to the known will of God.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 19, 2006 22:58:19 GMT -5
That doesn't mean that you are sinless then...it means that you aren't blatantly sinning against God
James 4:17, Romans 14:23 and 1 John 3:4 are the Biblical definitions of sin...
I wonder if your wife would agree that you don't sin?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 19, 2006 23:00:21 GMT -5
Sinless perfection is not teaching that you have never ever sinned, rather it is teaching that you are not to sin anymore! That you are no longer blatently, or subtly, sinning against the Lord.
I have sinned in my past, even since my initial conversion. But I have repented and am not living in sin or walking in sin or committing any sin at all in the present to the glory of God!
My testimony is the same as the Apostle Paul. I am "free from sin" Romans 6:22. All I claim is what the bible teaches. I have been cleansed from all unrighteousness, I love God enouch to keep His commandments, I have been crucified with Christ and am dead unto sin, the Son has set me free and I am free indeed!!!
Brothers, is this your testimony also? Can you say with the Apostle Paul that you are "free from sin"?
Honestly guys, all this seems to be an excuse for sin! Stop making excuses, and stop sinning!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 19, 2006 23:21:43 GMT -5
If you sin every day in word, thought, and deed you are on your way to hell. If you sin all the time, how can you go out and preach? You must first take the plank out of your own eye before trying to remove anything from anyone elses.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 19, 2006 23:26:16 GMT -5
RevK,
I agree with your definition of sin, and I almost posted those same three scriptures, but I have discussed this issue so much that I am tired of it already, so I gave a simple definition that summarized all three of those definitions.
Amen, Jesse. I agree with you. This whole discussion seems to be a defense of sin. I am free of sin also. Before I read your post I was thinking to myself I was going to say the same thing you said.
People ask you to defend your position biblically and then you do it, and we come up with all these nit picky discussions. God is holy, He commands us to be holy as He is holy, and without holiness no man will see the Lord. God is not a liar.
Years ago I saw God's standard of holiness in the Bible and though I had been a professing Christian for many years, I realized I was not a biblical Christian at all and if I died I would have went straight to hell.
I was under deep conviction for some time and experienced much godly sorrow that worked repentance to salvation in me. I humbled myself under God's standard and He gave me His grace to walk in the revelation of His holiness according to 1 Peter 1:13-16.
Grace supplies what truth demands. Titus 2:11-12, Romans 6:14.
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Post by Manna on Mar 19, 2006 23:35:50 GMT -5
Christian perfection is not sinless perfection as many have, it seems, come to understand it. No man can say he is sinlessly perfect, "he that says he has no sin decieveth himself, and the truth is not in him" Once you are born again does that mean you will never sin? Absoltlely not. Sin is rare, granted, but not at all impossible. I once heard an illustration that talked of a boat, I think it was brother Ravenhill who used this. He used to travel across the atlantic in wartime and there was minesthat would float to the surface in the modst of storms. With minds round about this boat as it travelled there was the definite possibility that this boat could sink, however at the same time there was the possibility that it wouldnt sink. That is an accurate biblical illustration. It is possible for us to not sin, but it also possible for us to sin. I most likely sound like an ignoramous to most of you seems how I cannot recite doctrine, but bear with me. Christian perfection is not sinless perfection because not one of us can claim to have no sin. Brother Jesse expressed the doctrine of sinless perfection, brother Jesse, are you sinless since conversion? If so please, tell me your secret, If not, How can you preach something you have not experienced? But if we knock off the word sinless, and tack on the word Christian than we can realize that this perfection spoken of is a restoration of the perfect unity between God and man through the person of Jesus Christ. Take heed least we be hardered through the deceitfulness of sin.. The Gospel will either soften a heart or harden, it is either a saver of life or of death. The wax is melted by the fire, the clay is hardered.. Just with the Gospel in its action upon this flesh, emotions, the spirit. If we resist the Holy Spirit, we become hardened, until a time when every approach of the Holy Spirit towards us is useless.. We can never wrap ourselves around in carnel security and smug complacency and persuade ourselves and try and presuade others, that we are all right... It is the Blood that atones for the soul.. Look at the Apostle Paul:Every true repentant heart feels like Paul, that they are the "Chief of Sinners", just as the Apostle Paul would say there is no good thing in this flesh, and it was not subject to the law of God and neither indeed could be, and will never please God... It is the Blood that atones for the soul.. Full purpose of a new obedience, or turning from sin, implies that the true repentant heart resolves to turn immediately to the practice of every known duty required of him by His Lord and Savior and will SERVE HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.. This my friends is a Repentance unto life... God be with you all...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 19, 2006 23:37:26 GMT -5
If you sin every day, you have no right to preach.
If you sin every day, you have no right to talk about theology. In fact, I don't want to hear about your theology because I don't want your theology!
You must remove the plank out of your eye before you do anything else whether that be preach or discuss theology.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 19, 2006 23:55:42 GMT -5
If you sin every day, you have no right to preach. If you sin every day, you have no right to talk about theology. In fact, I don't want to hear about your theology because I don't want your theology! You must remove the plank out of your eye before you do anything else whether that be preach or discuss theology. I don't know who you are referring to here Jesse, but I hope it isn't me. I never said that I sinned in thought, word or deed everyday...when have I EVER said that...whether on this message board or anywhere else? As far as nitpicking Micah, I think that can be said of just about any of the discussions on the doctrine part of this message board. In reality, most of the discussions that I have observed are over nitpicky things and you have been involved in those as well brother...
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 20, 2006 0:06:23 GMT -5
RevK,
You are right, I have been involved in nit picky discussions also. I am sorry, but I was not referring to you specifically, it was a general comment. I do not think you were being nit picky. It is just after we (those of us on this discussion board) have discussed these issues for pages and pages, defined what we mean,what we don't mean, etc. you don't want to keep going on and on with the same discussion.
However, I do think some of the discussions end up becoming nit picky because people are trying to excuse their sin. Like Jesse, I am growing weary of it. The bible says clearly what the bible means on the subject of holiness.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 20, 2006 0:31:04 GMT -5
It wasn't directed towards you directly or specifically. It was general. It was directed towards anyone who sins every day.
My posts come entirely from a heart that loves you all and hates all sin.
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Post by guest on Mar 20, 2006 12:42:06 GMT -5
Have you sinned even once in the last 2-3 months?
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Post by Juli on Mar 20, 2006 12:52:39 GMT -5
RevK, The bible says clearly what the bible means on the subject of holiness. too right. So clearly without holiness no one can see God. We've established this as truth. But the real issue at hand is not "should we be holy or is it expected of us" but HOW does this happen? Is it through faith alone? Grace alone? God's work alone? Our work alone? Etc. I think when we ask ourselves these questions, we will find the truth. It is either a work of God, a work of man, or both. What does scripture teach us on these points?
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 20, 2006 15:11:05 GMT -5
It is both. No one will deny it is a work of God and His grace. He gives grace to the humble and His grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world and redeem us from ALL iniquity (Titus 2:11-14).
There is also a part that man plays so it is also a work of man. 1 John 3:3-And every man that has this hope in Him PURIFIES HIMSELF even as He is pure.
2 Corinthians 7:1-Having therefore these promises dearly beloved, LET US CLEANSE OURSELVES OF ALL FILTHINESS OF THE FLESH AND SPIRIT PERFECTING HOLINESS IN THE FEAR OF GOD.
It is definitely both.
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Post by evanschaible on Mar 22, 2006 13:33:36 GMT -5
II Cor. 7:1, "Having therefore these promises dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God"
I remember when Paris Reidhead said we should never pass over a therefore until see what it is there for.
"Having therefore these precious promises..." seems to imply that "these precious promises" have a direct effect in cleansing ourselves of all filthiness.
II Cor. 6:16 may be the one with the most directed effect on our holiness. "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
I think it is solely a work of God through faith, here is why...
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24)
"Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate." (Psalm 34:19-22)
"My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth, He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber." (Psalm 121:2,3)
"I am the vine ye are the branches, He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." (John 15:5)
The reason I used this verse from John is because it is the essence of holiness. Past living free from sin, and blameless in the sight of the world and God, the greatest benefit to holiness is the abiding love of Jesus Christ. Living in constant fellowship and communion with God is the prime benefit of holiness.
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (v. 10)
Jesus says, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love..." and "without me ye can do nothing" so apart from Jesus we can't even keep his commandments. Faith alone.
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Post by tomah on Mar 22, 2006 13:52:08 GMT -5
Indeed Evan, you hit the nail on the head.
If you read my thread titled Romans 7:14-25, I deal with this issue for that passage.
Just as we were not justified by means of the law, so we cannot be sanctified by means of the law. If we try to live the Christian life by the law we will live a life of struggle and, to a large extent, defeat. Our victory is faith in Christ, not the Law.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 22, 2006 14:48:34 GMT -5
Yes so for God to be able to dwell in us and walk in us, we must cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.
I still do not see where your point takes anything away from man's responsibility.
We are still to cleanse ourselves
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Post by Evan on Mar 22, 2006 14:55:35 GMT -5
The means by which we are cleansed is Jesus blood, We cant work for the indwelling, just like we cant work for salvation. The indwelling Holy Ghost is who gives us our power to live pleasing to God, not anything we can do. It is supremely a gift of God. All we do is excersize our God given faith. We must "abide in Christ". That is the secret to all spiritual success and victory, abiding.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 22, 2006 18:56:56 GMT -5
Jesus blood indeed cleanses us, but 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are cleansed by the fear of God. Proverbs 16:6 says By mercy and truth iniquity is purged and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil.
Faith is a work. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 "...work of faith with power." Faith without works is dead. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Phillipians 2:12.
We have to abide in Him. It is not something He does for us. We abide in Him by faith and obedience.
Jesus was given the Holy Spirit because He pleased the Father (Matthew 12:18). We must also please the Father to be given the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32, Hebrews 11:6).
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Post by tomah on Mar 22, 2006 19:52:21 GMT -5
Faith is a gift bro, Eph 2:8 2 Thes 1:11 is speaking of the 'effect' or the 'outcome' that faith has, but it is a gift. Nevertheless, I do agree in some measure with what you're saying bro. It's another one of those difficult to comprehend matters. By the grace of God, we are what we are, and yet there is also our duty to do that which promotes godliness. I suppose it's summed up by saying that everything we are, we are by grace, but we have a duty to attend to the 'means of grace' to attain the necessary grace. Does that make sense?
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 22, 2006 20:59:11 GMT -5
Armen, I want to challenge your continual assertion that Eph 2:8 is saying that faith is a gift. This passage is saying that salvation is a gift not faith. Here's an excellent article on this: "Is Faith a Gift from God? by Eric Lyons, M.Min.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9, emp. added).
For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Ephesians 2:8. Does “that” (touto) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Ephesians 2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”). However, when one examines Ephesians 2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.
When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (1:7). The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (1:11). After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (1:13). Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (2:5). Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (2:13). Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power (3:7). Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.
Salvation is by grace. Salvation is through faith. Salvation is not of yourselves. Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation is not of works.
Paul was not giving an exposition on faith in his letter to the Ephesians. Salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Faith is not a direct gift from God given to some but not others. Rather, as Paul wrote to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is only found in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. John 20:31).
REFERENCES
Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan)."
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Post by tomah on Mar 22, 2006 21:20:44 GMT -5
But with your view on salvation, ULTIMATELY salvation IS of yourself. You make the choice.
To this I disagree and maintain that salvation is entirely "of the LORD".
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Post by Miles Lewis on Mar 22, 2006 21:28:25 GMT -5
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
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Post by tomah on Mar 22, 2006 21:32:45 GMT -5
In other words, "flee to Christ". It just means, 'to get deliverence from this awful world, go to the Saviour'. No?
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 22, 2006 21:39:24 GMT -5
Armen,
I have no idea how you can construe repenting and believing the gospel into people saving themselves. Arminians don't believe that we save ourselves but rather that we must respond to the gospel to be saved. We reject the monergism of Augustine-Calvin. We believe in evangelical synergism. God does all the saving, but we must repent and believe to be saved. All men have graciously been given enabled to respond to God because of the atonement of Christ. The emphasis is on free grace not free will. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith. It's by the grace of God from beginning to end so that no one can boast. If you're drowning in a lake and someone pulls up in a boat and extends a hand can you say that you saved yourself? The Arminian believes that we who are dead in our trespasses and sins have been graciously enabled by the God to reach out our hand to the Savior. No one who is thus saved has any inkling that they saved themselves.
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