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Post by messengermicah on Mar 26, 2006 22:36:31 GMT -5
Well Jeff, I do not doubt your sincerity, and there is truth to what you are saying. I am not saying that we are righteous based on what we do. What I said is that if we have in fact received His imputed righteousness, then we will do (act, live, work, etc) as righteous as Jesus is.
You can quote the Puritans and anyone else you would like. I gave you several VERY clear scriptures that show if you are righteous (because of what Jesus did-no one is refuting that), then your life, actions, and works will be as righteous as was the life, actions, and works of Jesus.
Do you refute what those scriptures say?
You totally avoided the whole point that I brought out clearly in the scriptures. You are giving me no scriptures, but quotes of man. By the way I do not disagree with the quote, but it has nothing to do with what I said in the above post.
You asked my question right but avoided answering it directly. You either purposely or accidently twisted what I said to make it sound like I was saying we become righteous by our own actions. That is not what I said nor what I quoted, and if you will look more carefully, and try to be more objective you will see clearly that is not what I said at all.
If you know that He is righteous you know that everyone that DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BORN OF HIM. John 2:29.
You see Jeff, this says if you in fact are made righteous by the blood of Jesus you will do, act, and live righteously.
Little children, let no man deceive you: (Jeff do not be deceived) HE THAT DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. 1 John 3:7
Jeff, the proof that you are made righteous is that you do, act, live righteously even as Jesus is righteous.
Please respond directly and do not twist what I am saying again.
He that says he abides in Him ought also so to WALK EVEN AS HE WALKED. 1 John 2:6
Jeff do you abide in Him? If you do then you are to walk even as He walked. God is not a liar.
Whosoever abides in Him sins not. 1 John 3:6
Jeff do you abide in Him? Then you do not sin. If you are sinning it is because you are not abiding in Him.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 27, 2006 1:06:39 GMT -5
I've been in on the loop of an email theological discussion back and forth between different people and this quote by Jim Gilles came up which I wanted to share:
"In other words, if you hold that an individual can be a sinner and a Christian simultaneously then you have to believe that a person could be a homo sodomizing, kiddie porn addicted, child molesting, cross dressing, wife beating, murderous Jeffrey Daumer cannibalistic, bank robbing, transsexual, KKK loving, blood drinking Nazi with a 666 pentagram tattoo on his forehead. Just to name a few."
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Post by tomah on Mar 27, 2006 17:42:19 GMT -5
As I have said before, many of the passages refered to as a believer being 'sinless' or 'perfect' are actually speaking about imputed righteousness. Jude 24 is an example, which is sp clearly speaking of imputed righteousness, that I don't know how you could ever think otherwise to be honest.
As I have said before, i believe very much in 'blamelessness' for the believer, but 'sinlessness' is ONLY found in Christ.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 27, 2006 19:52:17 GMT -5
Armen,
Even if you are correct, it is still irrevelant to the point at hand. Let's just say you are correct for argument's sake.
If we have in fact received His imputed righteousness, then we will do (act, live, work, etc) as righteous as Jesus is.
You can quote the Calvinists and anyone else you would like. Here are VERY clear scriptures that show if you are righteous (because of what Jesus did-no one is refuting that), then your life, actions, and works will be as righteous as was the life, actions, and works of Jesus.
Do you refute what these scriptures say?
If you know that He is righteous you know that everyone that DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BORN OF HIM. John 2:29. It says DOES righteousness. The proof that a person has been imputed the righteousness of Jesus Christ is that he or she acts, lives, walks, behaves as righteously as Jesus is.
You see Armen, this says if you in fact are made righteous by the blood of Jesus you will do, act, and live righteously. You say, "But not like Jesus."
Little children, let no man deceive you: (Armen do not be deceived) HE THAT DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. 1 John 3:7
Armen, the proof that you are made righteous is that you do, act, live righteously even as Jesus is righteous.
He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to WALK EVEN AS HE WALKED. 1 John 2:6
Armen do you abide in Him? If you do then you are to walk even as He walked. God is not a liar.
Whosoever abides in Him sins not. 1 John 3:6
Armen do you abide in Him? Then you do not sin. If you are sinning it is because you are not abiding in Him.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 27, 2006 19:53:02 GMT -5
As I have said before, many of the passages refered to as a believer being 'sinless' or 'perfect' are actually speaking about imputed righteousness. Jude 24 is an example, which is sp clearly speaking of imputed righteousness, that I don't know how you could ever think otherwise to be honest. As I have said before, i believe very much in 'blamelessness' for the believer, but 'sinlessness' is ONLY found in Christ. Preach it brother!
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Post by Evan on Mar 27, 2006 20:42:30 GMT -5
Jesse, I have done a good deal of research into this subject and I now see that Paul and John and most of the New Testemant teaches that we can live without sin. Thanks brother, I take this post back and I now see that sin and Christianity cant go together or Christ would be nothing more than the minister of sin. I talked about perfection this weekend at my church in a suday school class and some did say I was crazt but others said they have wondered about this exact thing for awhile now. --Evan
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 27, 2006 22:48:11 GMT -5
Praise be to God!!!!!!!!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 28, 2006 1:01:03 GMT -5
Evan, praise God!
Where are you from?
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Post by josh on Mar 28, 2006 9:38:08 GMT -5
Can we ever obtain to the point where we have no sin? Is it possible on this earth?
Answer to both these questions: Yes!
...the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin - 1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
The moment we pass from death to life, the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin, that is ALL sin. So at that point we are no longer in sin, but are sinless in His sight.
But the question remains, can we stay in that sinless state, and I think that we can. The answer to this problem comes down to the fact of who is able to keep us from sin. It is Jesus Christ who is able to keep us from sin.
I cannot keep myself from sin, but I have to rely on the Grace of God to keep me from falling, and we know that God won't allow us to fall into evil.
I cannot see how anyone can live in sin, and claim to be a Christian, its kinda of hard to understand that fact.
Jesus Himself said on two occasions in the Gospel of John "Go sin no more", now I guess the question is, 'Did Jesus really mean that?'. Did Jesus think it was possible for a fallen creation to go and sin no more?
What sin is there that we can't give up? What sin is there that God's grace can't keep us from?
I can't disagree with that. The moment a Christian sins we have the Holy Spirit to convict us, but if we willfully ignore His conviction, and refuse to repent we are openly rebelling against God, and that is where we will serve self, rather than God, thus walking away from our salvation...
If a Christian sins after conversion 1 John 1:9 comes into play, but if we fail to repent we are on dangerous grounds, as we are now sinning willfully.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 9:40:18 GMT -5
Amen! Good post.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 28, 2006 10:33:36 GMT -5
Everyone agrees on this point. Really, that is the thrust of both sides. One is saying that if you are in Christ you are actually in His character. The other is saying if you are in Christ His character covers yours up.[EDIT: I don't necessarily mean lasciviousness] Is this correct?
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
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Post by Evan on Mar 28, 2006 12:57:27 GMT -5
Jesse, Midland, MI
In regards to what Armen somewhere wrote, on the topic of imputed righteousness, I think righteousness is imputed as well as imparted. Jesus' righteousness is imputed at conversion and imparted that we can live in holiness and walk as he walked.
Armen, Wouldnt blamelesness include sinlessness? If we sin we are no longer blameless, if we resist temptation and the devil flees, we are blameless. Woudlnt you agree? We can never be as perfect as God because we have scars and bruises from past mistakes, but from the new birth on, it is possible to not sin as long as we abide in Jesus.
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Post by tomah on Mar 28, 2006 13:23:10 GMT -5
Jesse, Midland, MI In regards to what Armen somewhere wrote, on the topic of imputed righteousness, I think righteousness is imputed as well as imparted. Jesus' righteousness is imputed at conversion and imparted that we can live in holiness and walk as he walked. Armen, Wouldnt blamelesness include sinlessness? If we sin we are no longer blameless, if we resist temptation and the devil flees, we are blameless. Woudlnt you agree? We can never be as perfect as God because we have scars and bruises from past mistakes, but from the new birth on, it is possible to not sin as long as we abide in Jesus. Brother, let us look at it this way. Have ANY of you ever realised that something you thought was ok to do, is actually not ok to do? Is there a possibility that there might even be something like that in your life right now? My point is, if this is true of you (and I sincerely doubt that you haven't changed and become 'more holy' even since you've believed in sinlessness) then, the WHOLE TIME you thought you were in perfect obedience to God, you actually WEREN'T!! Now here lies the difference. You were not aware of the error and your conscience was perfectly clear, hence blamelessness. But to be sinless means that you can NEVER be any holier than you are right now. Which is unbiblical, and is proved by the testimony of every genuine believer who ever lived (as far as i am aware). EVERY believer has grown, and continues to grow in holiness. If they continually walk with God, they are never stagnent in their holiness, but it 'grows' (for want of a better word). Do you guys realise that with your beliefs, that you could see everyone and ANYONE saved right now? I'll explain...if you are sinless, then you have perfect faith. That means you ENTIRELY believe God. God says that he is not willing that ANY (your conditional election view here) should perish. The God says that if we ask ANYTHING according to His will he heareth us, and if we KNOW (your perfect faith here) that he hears us, we know that we have the petitions we desired of him. Can you prove this to be true in your life?
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 28, 2006 13:47:08 GMT -5
Brother, let us look at it this way. Have ANY of you ever realised that something you thought was ok to do, is actually not ok to do? Is there a possibility that there might even be something like that in your life right now? My point is, if this is true of you (and I sincerely doubt that you haven't changed and become 'more holy' even since you've believed in sinlessness) then, the WHOLE TIME you thought you were in perfect obedience to God, you actually WEREN'T!! Now here lies the difference. You were not aware of the error and your conscience was perfectly clear, hence blamelessness. But to be sinless means that you can NEVER be any holier than you are right now. Which is unbiblical, and is proved by the testimony of every genuine believer who ever lived (as far as i am aware). EVERY believer has grown, and continues to grow in holiness. If they continually walk with God, they are never stagnent in their holiness, but it 'grows' (for want of a better word). That's good stuff Armen! I thank God for you...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Mar 28, 2006 15:12:44 GMT -5
Complete repentance and growing in grace is completely different.
If you have not completely repented of all known sin in your life, you are not a Christian. Is the only sin that is in your life the sin you don't know about? Or is it sin that you do know about?
You do not have to sin in order to grow in grace. That is actually the opposite of growing in grace. To grow in grace is to grow in strength when overcoming temptation.
When I was first saved parties were a strong temptation because that was what I used to do. But I said no to the temptation, and no to the tempation, and no to the temptation so now it is not a very strong temptation at all. That is growth in grace.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 15:27:27 GMT -5
When a Christian chooses sin they are choosing rebellion towards God. The father cannot force his son to obey him. There are consequences to disobedience. If the child chooses rebellion he reaps the consequences of his rebellion.
God is longsuffering but not longsuffering the way our liberal society thinks of longsuffering. Of course God is more longsuffering with people who have less light or knowledge than others.
Remember Luke 12:47-48-That servant which knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself neither did according to His will shall be beaten with many stripes. But he which did commit things worthy of stripes but knew not his Lord's will shall be beaten with few.
It also mentions that the servant will be appointed his portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46) What is the portion of unbelievers? Hell-fire.
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Post by Juli on Mar 28, 2006 15:54:45 GMT -5
Now here lies the difference. You were not aware of the error and your conscience was perfectly clear, hence blamelessness. But to be sinless means that you can NEVER be any holier than you are right now. Which is unbiblical, and is proved by the testimony of every genuine believer who ever lived (as far as i am aware). EVERY believer has grown, and continues to grow in holiness. If they continually walk with God, they are never stagnent in their holiness, but it 'grows' (for want of a better word). Well put....what an excellent was to teach the difference between blamelessness and sinlessness. And you are so right, if we claim to be without sin, even as believers, then we claim to be holy right now. We put ourselves on the same level as Christ Himself who was wihtout sin. ANd if we are able to be without sin IN THE BODY then why did Christ have to die for us? Men would be able to make their own "sacrifice" after coming to a state of being without sin themselves.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 28, 2006 16:08:04 GMT -5
I don't understand this at all. Who said that you could overcome sin without Christ? No one here is saying you can overcome sin without Him. He died to destroy the works of the devil. He came to take away the sin of the world, not merely cover them up. A person needs their past sins covered and cleansed away so they do not continue in it.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 28, 2006 16:13:14 GMT -5
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 16:36:02 GMT -5
Juli,
We are without sin BECAUSE JESUS SAVED US FROM OUR SIN (Matthew 1:21). No one here has ever claimed we are holy without Jesus. We are holy because of Jesus. If we are not holy then we are without Jesus.
Juli, please read John 3 that tells us that unless we are born again we cannot enter into heaven, and then read 1 John 3:8-9-HE THAT COMMITS SIN IS OF THE DEVIL. WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN.
1 John 5:18- WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT.
What is the excuse for sinning Juli?
HE THAT SAYS HE ABIDES IN HIM OUGHT HIMSELF ALSO TO WALK EVEN AS HE WALKED. 1 John 2:6
AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD 1 John 4:17
WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT. 1 John 3:6
AND EVERY MAN THAT HAS THIS HOPE IN HIM PURIFIES HIMSELF EVEN AS HE IS PURE. 1 John 3:3
Juli, Armen, or anyone else, what is the acceptable level of sin a believer can have in his or her life? NONE!
Show me where Jesus or anyone else in the Bible ever talked about getting your sin down to a workable, reasonable, respectable level.
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Post by tomah on Mar 28, 2006 18:10:57 GMT -5
I would like to know how ANYONE can truely say and KNOW (the way only God knows) that they keep the greatest commandment...to love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind.
Is this possible? It is my firm conviction that only Christ truely fulfilled it's demands.
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Post by Jules on Mar 28, 2006 18:48:03 GMT -5
Well Micah, Josh, and anyone else - I guess we will just have to wait until heaven to see on this one. I would like to run across you guys in about 10 years after your pursuing holiness through the means you suggest, always living in fear of losing your salvation. Because if God Himself doesn't keep you faithful, then you must be the one who does it. And I don't believe man is able. If in ten years you are without sin, have not sinned AT ALL in 10 years, and are just as on fire as you are now, (and not in denial of personal sin) then praise God, I'll admit I was wrong. But until then - I have not seen any evidence in scripture to support that we are to or can live that way as you suggest. I have prayed about these points you have made, and I have gone the route you are at now, ending in the "I can lose my salvation because it is the only explanation to why I still sin" - so I can't say I haven't belived what you do - sinless perfection, conditional security. They certainly do go together. Apart, they make no sense. Just as the doctrines of eternal security and election go together. Seperate them and you make trouble for yourself in explaining either one.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 28, 2006 18:48:32 GMT -5
I suppose you guys (perfectly sinless ones) believe that Paul is talking about his preconversion state or he is talking in the "historical present tense" in Galatians 5:17 as well? It says, "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." <---Also notice that it's in the KJV
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 28, 2006 19:46:43 GMT -5
I think this topic has degenerated into that which is unedifying and not ministering grace to the readers. As I believe both sides are now offended and/or frustrated there can't be much profit in pursuing it further at this time. I want to encourage everyone to bite their tongue and keep their attitude in the Spirit. No one wins if this turns into a bitter war of words.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 20:28:55 GMT -5
Maybe you are right Steve, but I am not offended and am kind of enjoying the discussion.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 28, 2006 20:31:19 GMT -5
Jules,
I do not live in fear of losing my salvation. Did someone on here say that or are you inferring this?
By the way I have been living this way for quite a number of years.
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Post by josh on Mar 28, 2006 20:41:49 GMT -5
Well Micah, Josh, and anyone else - I guess we will just have to wait until heaven to see on this one. I would like to run across you guys in about 10 years after your pursuing holiness through the means you suggest, always living in fear of losing your salvation. Because if God Himself doesn't keep you faithful, then you must be the one who does it. . Please go back and read my post, where I stated that I Must rely on the Grace of God to keep me from sin. Now is that wrong to trust in God to keep me from sinning?
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 28, 2006 23:26:51 GMT -5
I think this topic has degenerated into that which is unedifying and not ministering grace to the readers. As I believe both sides are now offended and/or frustrated there can't be much profit in pursuing it further at this time. I want to encourage everyone to bite their tongue and keep their attitude in the Spirit. No one wins if this turns into a bitter war of words. I have to agree...and I am sorry, I really am. I guess I just don't like being categorized as I have. Either way, I shouldn't have responded the way I did. I don't think I am going to post on this message board anymore at all. It's just not worth it to me...
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Post by tomah on Mar 29, 2006 2:40:01 GMT -5
I would like to know how ANYONE can truely say and KNOW (the way only God knows) that they keep the greatest commandment...to love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. Is this possible? It is my firm conviction that only Christ truely fulfilled it's demands. Why won't people respond to this post? I want to hear some say that they KNOW they fulfill this.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 29, 2006 15:33:23 GMT -5
Armen,
I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but seriously what would be the point of us answering you anyway?
It is clear from the Word of God that this is God's commandment to us and His commandments are not grievous. You would not argue with us there of course. However when we say that we have a biblical experience of being saved from all sin and walking in obedience to the will of God you guys accuse us of either trying to earn our salvation, trusting in our works more than in Jesus, etc. or you accuse us of lying, being prideful, etc.
So we either deny the Word of God and our experience, or we risk being called prideful, lying, trusting in ourselves, etc.
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