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Post by Manna on Mar 22, 2006 22:04:21 GMT -5
But with your view on salvation, ULTIMATELY salvation IS of yourself. You make the choice. To this I disagree and maintain that salvation is entirely "of the LORD". What is this, you can't exist in this world without Faith, you use it everyday, to the mornings you awake, to the belief of the hot water for the bath, to te newspaper at the stand, to the seasons that come each year. While that is true, are you forgetting that God has given us the power to believe. When God made us, he made you, and i the capacity to believe in Him. Just as he gave us eyes to see, ears to hear with and of course a mind to think with.. So He has given us the ability to believe in Him.. Do you know what it takes to be an infidel , God never made one of those, it takes a lot of time, and thinking before man will become one of those. The Apostle Paul, calls this futile thinking.. It is natural to believe in God, what is unnatural is doubt.. Look at a child, they have no problem believing, just think that is why a lot is converted when they are young. Just as crazy as it sounds for us to say "that God i cannot see unless you give me eyes(use them my friend, when did it become a Faith issue not to see? Will God give me Faith to believe?, well he has done that also, use it. Would couldn't live in this world if we couldn't or didn't believe.. We believe all the time, i believe at 600am the alarm will go off, i believe that when i get in the jeep it will start, i believe when i go to the store , milk will be there to buy.. Then ask yourself how do i know these things will happen as i write them..I believe!! This is the kind of Belief that brings salvation and a blessing. Bacially you have to take God's WORD FOR IT, HE WILL NEVER FAIL US. I believe because of his Righteousness. TO EVEN ASK A SOUL TO WAIT FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN, TO EVEN ENABLE THEM TO BELIEVE, (will damned their soul and dishonor God).. Just think about it !!!What kind of God would he be if He did not make us capable of believing, and yet damned us for not doing so. Really!! Wouldn't that be cruelty on God's part? That He gave His Son to die for our sins and provide for us "A Beautiful Precious Savior ", and yet make us incapable of believing in Him to be saved. God is sincere when he offers salvation to"whosoever will" for Jesus. And it isn't cause they couldn't believe, but because they Would not!!.. Blessed Regards...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 22, 2006 23:08:05 GMT -5
God is the one that gave me the ability to chose Him. All the glory goes to Him.
Examine this...
Who is being shown more love? A slave or an employee? They both work for the same man and do the same work. The slave has no choice. Even if he enjoys or hates it job, it makes to difference. The employee loves the job. If he hated it he would leave, but in this case he would never leave because he loves his Boss and the Job. The employee even gets a small reward each week. Now the employee doesn't work just for the reward, but never the less it does come. Being an employee he could come and go if he chose, but the slave has no choice.
Without trying to prove one theological stance above another.. in other words just using this story. Who is being shown more love? The employee or the slave? The one with the free will or the one without?
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Post by josh on Mar 23, 2006 6:35:57 GMT -5
Now I hold to Christian perfection, and I like the quote Jesse put up from Duncan Campbell.
But now here is a question I have to ask, if those whom hold to Christian perfection (sinless perfection), start telling people they don't commit sin anymore, wouldn't that be pride?
After all a humble person would never blow his own trumpet.
But rather the fruits would speak for themselves, and it wouldn't take someone saying "I don't sin"
Josh
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 8:25:55 GMT -5
Depending on the heart it could be prideful. In and of itself though it is not prideful. It is a testimony to the power of the blood of Jesus Christ. That should be what a person is saying when they testify to being saved from sin. They don't commit sin anymore (Matthew 1:21).
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 8:37:45 GMT -5
Depending on the heart it could be prideful. In and of itself though it is not prideful. It is a testimony to the power of the blood of Jesus Christ. That should be what a person is saying when they testify to being saved from sin. They don't commit sin anymore (Matthew 1:21). Josh poses a good question, because I don't recall any preacher in the Bible saying this while he is preaching or witnessing to the lost...even Jesus and he NEVER sinned past, present or future.
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Post by Grant on Mar 23, 2006 9:55:57 GMT -5
Interesting enough, the more we draw near to Him the more we see filth in our life. And we're not to compare our filth to others' but against His Righteousness. I do believe we should be living in victory over sin, but that in no way means I have no more sin but instead says that the sin I'm aware of is being foresaken and killed.
I assume you all are much more aware than I on how GOD shines more on our lives as we come to know Him better in order to continue cleaning house.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 10:59:33 GMT -5
What is the purpose to preach that others should be saved from sin if we cannot truthfully say that we are saved from sin ourselves. To tell people that I don't sin anymore is never the purpose of my message when I preach. However usually I will be asked something like, "Oh so you don't sin anymore?" How can I preach to them unless I can answer truthfully, "No I do not commit sin anymore. I am saved from my sin. Sin has no power over me anymore."
This does not mean there is still not a ongoing purifying of the heart going on nor does it mean I have ceased to "grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 3:18
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 11:40:27 GMT -5
The only proof that Jesus can save from sin is the sinless life of a believer. If Jesus can't save a person from a sinful life to a sinless life then the Bible is a lie.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 13:45:32 GMT -5
I have to say that I HUMBLY disagree with Micah's last two posts VERY STRONGLY ;D
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Post by Jules on Mar 23, 2006 14:02:08 GMT -5
I disagree too that we should NOT preach to those in sin that we ourselves do not sin, even if you believe it. It isn't the time. Conversion preaching is just law and grace. Discipleship is where the deeper truths come into play. To introduce them too early to a teaching on holiness is like throwing a steak to someone still on the milk bottle. Paul used that wisdom and didn't move on until his audience was ready for it. We should do the same.
There is a balance between being holy and blameless by virtue of Christ's righteousness being imparted to us, and that of it coming by obedience. To focus too heavily on the former results in a lukewarm apathetic Christian who doesn't obey because they don't feel the need since they were told that when God looks on them He sees the righteousness of Christ and not their sins (faith, no works) and to focus too much on the latter results in someone who ends up working for their salvation. We are always to avoid extremes, as Proverbs teaches us.
Holiness and perfection (or becoming complete) is still the goal, but as Paul pointed out, he himself wasn't perfect toward the end of his life. He still had sinful desires He wrestled with. Am I better than Paul? No way. While I still sin, my sins are becoming more vile to my own self, I am in constant recognition that it is by grace and grace alone I am able to stand before a holy God, through my faith in Christ.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 14:55:06 GMT -5
Jules,
I will repeat that my object is never to preach to people that I do not commit sin anymore. However if it comes up and a person is preaching that Jesus can save from sin (Matthew 1:21), if someone asks us we should have that testimony.
Furthermore, Jesus said we have to be born again to enter into the kingdom of God or heaven. Do you preach on the new birth? 1 John 3:8 says He that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:9 says whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, and 1 John 5:18 says whosoever is born of God sins not.
Forsaking of all known sin (repentance) is necessary for salvation.
I strongly disagree we should not preach God's standard of holiness to unbelievers. That is where the conviction comes from. That is where the crying out for God's Grace and power to overcome sin comes from. If we only preach to people what we expect they can do in their own strength, then why do they even need salvation? Why would they need God's grace? This is one reason we never see dramatic conversions. The standard of God's holiness we preach is too low.
I believe what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians is preaching the deeper mysteries of Christ and the Bible to unbelievers. Well of course not because The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. That is the whole context of 1 Corinthians 2.
Also I believe you are mistaken about Paul. In Phillipians 3 Paul said he counted not himself to have apprehended or to have attained perfection (a life of holiness and obedience to God). He was not saying he had not attained it he was merely saying he COUNTED himself not to have attained it.
He then goes on to say "as many therefore as be PERFECT..." Phillipians 3:15.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 14:55:37 GMT -5
RevK,
Why do you disagree?
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 18:32:02 GMT -5
RevK, Why do you disagree? I don't think I need to state my views on this again...I think just about everyone on here has read about that...just wanted to state my disagreement, that's all ;D
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Post by Josh Parsley on Mar 23, 2006 19:00:23 GMT -5
When you guys are asked if you sin, what do you answer? Surely you guys have had that question asked. I do frequently...
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Post by Jules on Mar 23, 2006 20:04:09 GMT -5
I strongly disagree we should not preach God's standard of holiness to unbelievers. That is where the conviction comes from. That is where the crying out for God's Grace and power to overcome sin comes from. If we only preach to people what we expect they can do in their own strength, then why do they even need salvation? Why would they need God's grace? This is one reason we never see dramatic conversions. The standard of God's holiness we preach is too low. be careful, you're starting to sound like a Calvinist! Preaching God's standard of holiness is of course essential, and forsaking all known sin, I totally agree. I present holiness at the standard of course, how else will they realize they have fallen short? But help me understand this, because I have never preached holiness in the way that you guys do before, not that I don't agree in the standard, but I simply don't see in scripture where it says that ALL believers will stop sinning after conversion. OK, if you guys says you don't sin anymore, then I'll take your word for it. But you're the ONLY Christians I've ever met to claim that. So what do YOU tell your brothers and sisters in Christ who still sin? I think it might be confusing. If a new believer was told that they had the ability to not sin after conversion b/c of the new birth, being freed from sins, etc....yet their faith is weak, what do you think happens when they sin the first time? I would think the tendency to become legalistic would slowly creep in, because their faith is weak. Am I wrong? how do people receive it when your answer is what you say it is? Has anyone ever believed you and said "I want to be free from sin like that too?" I honestly ask this question, because I would assume that most people in the moment of hot conviction, would be too overwhelmed to think about or understand what sanctification is. I stand by my opinion of Paul. As long as we are in the body of sin, we have a sin nature. He wasn't perfected or made complete, but was always in the process. And we should never think we are beyond or out of the reach of sin. One of you guys mentioned something to that affect that was good on another thread.
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Post by Jules on Mar 23, 2006 20:10:29 GMT -5
When you guys are asked if you sin, what do you answer? Surely you guys have had that question asked. I do frequently... Questions like that are an attempt to deflect the heat off themselves and onto me, or something else. Realizing this, I answer them but keep it short, and turn it right back around at 'em. I tell them that I do still sin, but the difference now is that 1) I HATE my sin, it makes me sick to think on it or dwell in it 2) conviction comes and doesn't let up 3) I can now enter into the holiest of holies through the blood of Christ and obtain mercy, because Jesus is my High Priest interceding for me 4) God forgives me 5) I sin less in frequency and intensity (if that makes sense) I don't mention all these things, but that is how I see sin in my life now, if they ask. But, they rarely do for some reason. And I do preach the law and wrath of God, so they do feel judged I'm sure. But I hope they are feeling judged by God and not me, cause I don't want to be in the middle of that.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 20:31:29 GMT -5
I am not trying to be sarcastic here or anything, because your response seems very humble and sincere, but if people are still sinning (commiting, practicing sins) then they are not saved. Where do you see in the Bible where it is ok for a Christian to have an acceptable level of sin in his life? What is the acceptable level of sin allowed? Does God expect us to get our adultery down to a workable, respectable, manageable level? Or our idolatry? Does God command us to do things we are not capable of doing?
You said you have never seen any scriptures that say all believers will stop sinning after conversion, but I gave you several in the last post. 1 John 3:8 says if you commit sin you are of the devil. 1 John 3:9 says whosoever is born of God does not commit sin. 1 John 5:18 says Whosoever is born of God sins not. Hebrews 10:26 says if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
That covers sins of commision. As far as sins of omission (James 4:17) Jesus said Not everyone that says unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven (Matthew 7:21). Luke 6:46-Why call ye me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say? Is it ok to disobey God? Is it acceptable to only obey when it is convenient? Does God understand? He is merciful, yes if we are repentant, but is it ok? No it is not.
Most people are surprised when we say we do not sin anymore. This is because much of the church has a wrong idea of what salvation actually is. Salvation from the power of sin as well as the penalty of sin. "Everybodys sins", "You are not supposed to judge", "God forgives everyone", "God loves everyone", "God never hates", etc. are all wrong ideas the world has picked up from the false message coming from most churches. This response does not surprise me.
Paul as well as all Christians are to be constantly growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is a process. However, repenting of sin is done at conversion. The reason some "Christians" still sin after their supposed conversion is because a wrong message, with a wrong image of the character of God was presented to them. I believe also a false idea of the requirements of salvation and discipleship. Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Jesus even unto death. I do not remember who but someone said that Christianity begins at the point where we are willing to put our physical life on the line. Is this the message we hear in America?
Paul was not satisfied with his walk, his experience, his knowledge of God, his fruit, etc. He was always hungering for more of God. He was not however, always bemoaning his sins, his lack of ability, lack of power, etc. The times it appears he is doing that (Romans 7, 1 Timothy 1:15) he is referring to his past life as a Pharisee trying to keep the Jewish law. He realized the law could not save him and he needed a Savior.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 20:34:13 GMT -5
Jules,
Sorry, one more thing. I also do not believe myself or anyone ever gets out of the reach of sin. Otherwise the scripture would not say things like, "Wherefore let him that thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12
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Post by Steve Noel on Mar 23, 2006 20:39:08 GMT -5
I put this under the Say It All thread a while back but I think this is a good place to repaste it:
The Difference Salvation Makes Jason Kranzusch
I am often asked the question when preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ on street corners, campuses, and in various places, "Do you sin?" I will say, "I have sinned on occasion since I was born again." The typical response is, "Then what's the difference between you and me?" I believe there are at least six differences between a true Christian and someone who lives a life of sin.
1. We have different relationships with sin. Sin no longer has dominion over me (Rom 6:14). You are "sold under sin" and are brought under its captivity (Rom 7:14, 23). The normal Christian life is that we sin not (1 John 2:1).
According to 1 John 3:9, "Whosoever has been born of God does not sin, for his seed remains in him and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." The Apostle is not saying that it is impossible for the Christian to commit a sin, but that through grace, it is possible not to sin. It is, however, impossible to sin willfully and remain a Christian.
2. We have different attitudes toward sin. I hate sin; you love sin. If I were to sin, it would bring grief to my heart, not only over the consequences of a severed relationship with God, but also over the fact that I had hurt, offended, angered, and grieved him. My consuming desire, at that point, would be to get rid of what had separated me from my God as quickly as possible.
3. We have a different understanding regarding the awfulness of sin. I believe what the Bible says about sin. Its wages are death (Rom 6:23). God hates sin and the person who commits it. According to Hebrews 1:9 God hates iniquity. Psalm 5:5 declares that God hates all who work iniquity. Sin is worthy of eternal d**nation. If you believed that the Bible says you deserve hell for your sinning, you would find the way of escape (1 Cor 10:13).
4. We have different attitudes toward the potential of committing sin. Your attitude is when I sin. Mine is if I sin. Do you see the difference? Sin is not normal for a Christian. I do not plan to ever sin again. If you are honest and sincere, you must admit that you not only plan to sin, but that you enjoy sinning. "Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil" (Eccl 8:11).
5. We have different expectations and desires regarding holy living. The just man desires and expects to be sanctified wholly. He desires to be totally free from sin as a principle. According to Hebrews 4:9, "There remains therefore a rest for the people of God." We enter into this rest when the very God of peace sanctifies us wholly (1 Thess 5:23).
However, you reject the idea that it is possible to live such a life, that it is commanded, nor do you even desire such a life. Nevertheless, all God's commands are matched by the grace necessary to obey. If you will follow Jesus, he will help you. "He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it" (1 Thess 5:24).
6. Our ultimate intentions are different. Mine is to glorify God in everything. I know that sin, in any form, does not glorify God. Your ultimate intention is to enjoy life and please yourself.
How much time do you spend seeking God? The psalmist wrote, "Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You" (Psalm 73:25). "O Lord, we have waited for You. The desire of our soul is for Your name and for the remembrance of You" (Isa 26:8).
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 20:45:01 GMT -5
Very good post Steve.
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Post by nobody on Mar 23, 2006 21:38:49 GMT -5
Sinless perfection is not teaching that you have never ever sinned, rather it is teaching that you are not to sin anymore! That you are no longer blatently, or subtly, sinning against the Lord. I have sinned in my past, even since my initial conversion. But I have repented and am not living in sin or walking in sin or committing any sin at all in the present to the glory of God! My testimony is the same as the Apostle Paul. I am "free from sin" Romans 6:22. All I claim is what the bible teaches. I have been cleansed from all unrighteousness, I love God enouch to keep His commandments, I have been crucified with Christ and am dead unto sin, the Son has set me free and I am free indeed!!! Brothers, is this your testimony also? Can you say with the Apostle Paul that you are "free from sin"? Honestly guys, all this seems to be an excuse for sin! Stop making excuses, and stop sinning! Have you sinned even once in the last few months?
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Post by Manna on Mar 23, 2006 21:40:55 GMT -5
Would anyone like to comment, what it means to : "You cannot live in sin and die in grace"?
Blessed Regards..
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 22:15:26 GMT -5
Micah, the Scriptures that you are quoting from 1 John actually say in the Greek that they will not "practice" sin. There is a difference between someone "practicing" sin or "walking" in sin or living a life of sin as a whole and someone who commits acts of sin...say once or twice a week but hates the fact that they did it.
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 22:43:01 GMT -5
Sorry, but sinning the same sin once or twice a week is practicing or commiting sin. Someone who is doing that is absolutely not saved. I totally disagree with you there. If that is what you mean I think you are defending sin.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 22:45:41 GMT -5
No one is defending sin here brother...just stating EXACTLY what the text says. I absolutely HATE SIN. "Practicing" means that you are doing it to become better at it...so when was the last time you sinned Micah? Did you lose your salvation when you did? How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been Born Again (and again and again and again)?
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 23:01:29 GMT -5
RevK, Hey don't get so emotional and don't raise your keyboard at me. I do not know when the last time I commited a sin was. Maybe I did, but nothing at all comes to mind right now. I am certainly capable of sinning, but I just do not. I am sure I have probably sinned since the New Year started, but I cannot think of some sin I did. If I sin and do not repent, I lose sensitivity to the Holy Spirit. My heart becomes hardened. If I die in that state I will go to hell. My sin separates me from God. When I repent I turn back to God and God turns back to me again. Then I am in fellowship with him again. I do not know how far someone can go in sin before they lose their salvation. From what I see and understand from the Bible I believe it is only once. I hate sin anyway and fear God and do not want to find out. How many sins got Adam kicked out of Eden? How many got the angels kicked out of Heaven? Jesus said pluck an eye out, cut off a hand or a foot if it causes you to sin, because it would be better to go through life maimed than to enter into hell. In other words a habitual sin will land a person straight into hell. Based on what you are saying, someone could watch pornography or get drunk once or twice a week and still be a Christian and still go to heaven. I don't care how much they say they hate their sin they don't. If they hated their sin they would truly repent and forsake their sin. The sooner those people realize if they die they will go straight to hell fire they will find a way to repent. The things you are saying strengthens them in their sin. Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad whom I have not made sad, and strengthened the hands of the wicked that he should not return from his wicked way by promising him life. Ezekiel 13:22 You may hate sin personally but if you teach that you are keeping people comfortable in their sin.
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 23, 2006 23:14:06 GMT -5
No offense brother, but you don't know what I teach ;D. If you would like to know, you can listen to some of my sermons at: www.pinpointevangelism.com/4.html. I teach that people should hate their sin and keep turning from it. You have said many times that people must continue to grow in their walk with the Lord. But I must ask this: if you no longer sin since you have been saved, then where is there to grow to? You have already arrived! You said this: "I do not know how far someone can go in sin before they lose their salvation." And I believe that is the problem. Can you show me once instance in the Bible that a person lost their salvation (the Bible says they did) and then they gained their salvation (the Bible says they did). In other words, they were born again and then born again-again. I can't find one. The only thing I can do as a preacher is call people to depart from sin, live wholly unto God and examine themselves! You also said: "In other words a habitual sin will land a person straight into hell." I agree with that, because if someone habitually sins, or walks in sin, or practices sin then they are NOT a Christian. But there is definitely a difference between that and single acts of sin. Let me give you an example from the natural: Maybe I go out and play baseball once a year, but I stink at it and don't even like playing when I do. Everytime I go home afterwards, I resolve to never do it again. That is committing sin. Then let's say I go out and practice playing baseball everyday. It's my life's joy, I love it and I want to be the best at it that I possibly can. That is practicing baseball. There is where lies the difference I believe brother. Hey, I know you were joking...but I ain't mad at you bro! It is hard to read emotions on here... ;D
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 23:35:59 GMT -5
You are right I do not know what you teach, that is why I said "if" that is what you teach.
In the earlier example you gave, you mentioned someone could be a Christian and sin once or twice a week and hate it. That is practicing sin. It is a practice. It is a habit. It is bondage. It is something they enjoy. They may not enjoy the repercussions, but if they could commit the act and have no consequences they would continue the sin. They have not repented, therefore they are not saved. They say they hate the sin because of selfish motives. They don't like the feeling of guilt they have afterwards, or the consequences, the money spent, the health risks, etc. It is all selfish. There is no concern of sinning against a loving, holy God. That person is not a Christian. If they were they would forsake their sin.
Let's discuss "loosing salvation". What is salvation? Salvation from sin (Matthew 1:21), or deliverance from a life of sin and now sin has no power over an individual anymore. He has forsook his sins and now he abides in Jesus (whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not). If a person goes back into sin, they have lost their salvation. They are now separated from God and are under the bondage of sin again. If they die they die in their sins (Ezekiel 18, 33). You can't have God and sin too. It's one or the other. If the person forsakes the sin and turns back to God they are reconciled again to God. It is not getting born again over and over again.
I also believe if a person keeps going back into sin, they may not be able to get back to God at a certain point. Their heart is hardened, their conscience seared, and God's Spirit will not strive with man always (Genesis 6:3).
I don't think it is easy for a person to get saved, taste the goodness of God, and then keep going back into deep, hard sin. It's not like a person can just keep on doing that over and over again.
It is extremely dangerous for a true Christian to play around with sin. Nevertheless it happens, and people end up lost. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:31).
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Post by messengermicah on Mar 23, 2006 23:41:02 GMT -5
By the way, growing in Christ involving a lot more than just not sinning anymore.
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Post by bullhornbob on Mar 24, 2006 0:33:08 GMT -5
Just thought I would chime in......
John 3:16-21 clearly draws a line of distinction between those who love God and hate sin, and those who love sin and hate God. One or the other, and no gray areas. This is the theme throughout the Bible.
I also find it amazing that this one verse (16) is constantly quoted out of context.
Our minds cannot fathom the abhorrence God has towards sin. So we must rationalize, as to appease the erroneous mindset caused by false teaching, which is obviously caused by being slothful in reading and studying the Bible.
Doesn't anybody study for themselves anymore?
Lazy, deceived, and lukewarm american christianity. People sin because they want to sin. Bottom line.
I'm getting nauseous just thinking about it.
Soundoff!
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