|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 26, 2006 13:54:56 GMT -5
I would like to submit my humble apology to this thread, as I replied from the first page an didnt see Miles' big bold letters. Call it presumption if you like, henceforth I will refrain from thisi thread. Sorry brother.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 26, 2006 15:07:18 GMT -5
Biblethumper, you and I have similar backgrounds and experience. When I became a Christian back in 1997, I adamantly believed that one could lose their salvation. Then I searched the Scriptures objectively and have come to the same conclusions that you have brother.
Evan, let's not even get into that license to sin thing. I don't think there is ONE PERSON who is on this message board who believes like that (except for maybe Morluna and friends). Just about every non-Arminian on this board has made it clear that they believe in the Persaverance of the Saints...
Well...since Biblethumper won't be "Debating", I would like to post somethings that I have said in the past that have NEVER been answered and I don't think will be answered Biblically! Here it is:
Let’s reason together. Ask yourself this question: If someone is saved, that is they are on their way to Heaven, then how did they get that status in the first place? Well they got it by Grace (a word that seems foreign to many people who believe you can lose your salvation). What is Grace? It is unmerited favor. It is getting something that you didn’t deserve and will NEVER deserve. How does someone get this Grace? They get it through faith. What is faith? It is believing in something you can’t see. It is taking God at His Word and believing it even though you can’t see the “proof” of it. But faith goes further than that. If we look at the rest of Scripture, then it must include repentance. Because true faith must be followed by works. What kind of works? Well...good works. Works that show repentance. Obedience to Christ and His commands. Loving Him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. Yes, you aren’t saved by works, but you ARE saved TO works. The people that say works aren’t required by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, forget to read on to verse 10. Such people have also not read the book of James or the book of 1 John. So someone is saved BY Grace, THROUGH Faith (which includes everything we just talked about). They are saved by the Blood of Jesus who washes away all our sins. If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins? And if Jesus died on the cross for the sins of those who will trust in Him in the future, then how can that person who trusted in Jesus, and now has supposedly fallen away, take the punishment for his sins as well. That would be ludicrous! Only one person can be punished. Ever heard of the legal term “Double Jeopardy”? One person can’t be punished for the same crime twice and two people can’t be punished for the same crime.
Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of the believers relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word youiothesia and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of Paul’s time and it is also true of today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that..you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children.
Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word sphragizo and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting who’s protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “is given as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word harrabon and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar.
What about this: when does someone lose their salvation? What sin causes someone to lose their salvation? Or how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation? At what point does God say, “Ok you are now not my child any longer, but if you start doing things right again I will make you my child once again.”? Would you ever disown your own biological child? I know that I wouldn’t and God is much more merciful and patient than I am. My son is of my own flesh and blood. And if we are God’s children then we are of His Blood, that is the Blood of Jesus. If someone could lost their salvation, at what point do they regain it? James 2:10 say, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a Christian can lose his or her salvation and we reason correctly, that would mean that a person would lose their salvation every time they sin. How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you been saved? Are you saved right now? Remember what the True Definition of sin is: "Falling short of the Glory of GOd," (Romans 3:23) that is falling short of Jesus. Sin is not just breaking the Ten Commandments. If that is what you consider being a Christian or being Holy, then that is a shallow view of Holiness in my humble opinion. I would also say that it isn't a Biblical view of Holiness. Don't forget about James 4:17. Do you witness to EVERY single person that you can? Do you only spend your money on what you need and give the rest away to help others? Do you pray as much as you should? Do you read the Word as much as you should? Are you broken over the state of the world and the Church?
What does Jesus mean when He says to Nicodemus, you must be “Born Again.” If Jesus believed in losing your salvation then why didn’t He say that you must be “Born Again and Again and Again”? Surely Jesus could see into the future that Nicodemus was going to sin again after he became Born Again. It would only make sense that Jesus would tell him the whole truth then and tell him that he must be Born again and again and again and again and again and even again and again if so needed.
Take a look for at Romans 8:29-30. It says, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” The ones God “foreknew” are His Children. The ones that God knew ahead of time (because He is God, is outside of time and sees everything at all times- past, present and future) were the ones He knew would repent of their sins and Trust in His Son Jesus Christ. Those are the ones that He predestined (NO, not predestined to save- God does NOT choose whom He will save) to be Conformed to His likeness. When I look back on my life before I became a Christian I see God working in my life. He was working on making me who He wanted me to be before I even became a Christian. Anyway, to the point of this passage. It says, “these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” If some Christians “slip through the cracks”, if some become “unsaved”, then why doesn’t that verse instead say something like this: “these whom He predestined, some He called, those whom He called, some were justified, those whom He justified, just a few he glorified.” If a Christian can lose his salvation, that is what that verse would have to read. But this verse doesn’t say that. In fact, it makes it quite clear that every single one that is predestined (to be conformed) is called, each and every one that is called is justified and every single one that is justified is also glorified in Heaven.
Then just a little bit later in the same chapter, we have verses 38-39. They say, “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So what can separate someone from the love that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord? That is, if someone is IN Christ Jesus Our Lord, what can separate from that Love? The Love that sent Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me who don’t deserve such a sacrifice. Most people who believe someone can lose their salvation, believe it is the person’s actions (sins) that separate them from God after conversion. Well if that person is a “created thing” then even they can’t separate themselves from the love that is found “in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
What about Philippians 1:6, "being confident that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
Can God no longer carry on HIS work of salvation to completion?
John 6:37-40, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will NEVER drive away. For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise them up in the last day. For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Where is there room in that Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians?
Then there is John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is great than all; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND. I and the Father are one."
Same question for this one: Where is there room in this Scripture for Jesus to lose any who are Truly Christians? I know, I know, someone can walk out of God's hands, right? Notice it says that No One can snatch them out of God's hand. If that doesn't include people, I would like to know who Jesus is referring to when He says, "no one."
John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water that I give him will NEVER thirst. Indeed the water I give him will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
Once the fountain is open, it never runs dry. It is a wellspring of eternal life.
1 Corinthians 1:8-9, "He (Jesus) will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."
These are just a few of the things that someone who believes that a Christian can lose their salvation must overcome in order to believe such a thing. This is not an exhaustive list to backup OSAS in Scripture by any means. I will write more later if need be. In my mind, believing that someone can lose their salvation goes against Scripture as a whole. But I was once one who believed such a thing. Therefore I still love the brethren who believe such a thing, even if they NEVER believe what I now believe. I can get along with any True Christian for the sake of the Great Commission, saving lost souls and storming the gates of Hell. There is power in numbers. One last thing I want everyone to keep in mind when studying Scripture and deciding which way they are going to believe. Don’t let your experience with people who believe OSAS or that you can lose your salvation influence how you believe. There are hypocrites in both camps (whether they were once saved or never saved). Look into this subject objectively and with a clear mind, allowing the Spirit to speak to and looking into this subject through sound hermeneutics. God Bless you as you search- Jeremiah 29:13.
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 26, 2006 16:07:44 GMT -5
wow! Very good post!
If I was an Arminian I'd be all messed up!
Phew!
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 26, 2006 19:31:16 GMT -5
Next, let’s look at a word that Paul used. Paul used the word “adoption” many times to speak of the believers relation to God after they Repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ ( Romans 8:15, 23; 9:4; Ephesians 1:5; Galatians 4:5-6). This is the Greek word youiothesia and it means to be accepted by God as a son (or daughter). He used that term because he knew what it meant legally to the people of his time. He knew that it meant that someone who once wasn’t a child has now become a child. And guess what? Once you adopt a child you have them for good. They can never again be put up for adoption. That was true of Paul’s time and it is also true of today. That child is yours for good. You can’t...let me repeat that..you CAN’T put that child back up for adoption. They are yours always and FOREVER. It is the same way with God. Once we are His children, we are ALWAYS His Children. First let's look at this. This is to say that your child would never leave you. This is something that happens in the natural world all the time. We hear about it and see it happen with people we know who have children. Children, whether adopted or natural ALL have the choice to stay or leave. I'm sure you don't hold your children prisoners in the family, do you? NO! Neither does God our Father. This doesn't mean that God doesn't love us if we did, we just wouldn't be His child at that time until we turned from the wickedness and face Him. I know you want to jump on this and say "how much sin causes someone to lose their salvation?" I will handle that later, this is dealing with our relationship or covenant right now. Jesus gave us the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32 "24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." to show us that it is possible to become (spiritually) dead in our sins if and when we walk away from Him to go back into sinful living. If you note, that son was alive then became dead (in sin again) and then became alive again. Now we know that we have to first be made alive (spiritually) in order to then become dead (spiritually) to then be made alive again (spiritually). Jesus was not saying the son died physically. To say anything different than this would be ignoring truth. Yes we are still God's creation when we do fall into sin and die spiritually and God still loves us but he will not tolerate the vile sin. God cannot nor will He ever let sin be in His presence. He is Holy and to say that a Christian who stumbles, falls and acts upon the sin of adultry, who would die on his way home from doing that without repenting and seeking God's mercy would be allowed into God's Kingdom is, and I'll use your words, "That would be ludicrous!" Rev. 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it (The New Jerusalem) , nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. The parable of the Prodigal is a clear example given by our Savior Jesus that it is possible to fall from grace.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 26, 2006 20:01:57 GMT -5
No matter if my son still leaves me or not, he is still legally my son and I would still consider him my son. Just because he ran away, doesn't mean that changes his legal status with me. As far as the prodigal son story, I would argue that that is actually a lost sinner coming to repentance. We are all God's children in some respect, because we are all created by Him to do His will. Unfortunately we reject Him through our rebellious sinful lives and until we come to the knowledge that we are sinners in the mud wanting to run our lives the way we want to with the blessing God has bestowed upon our lives, we won't repent. But once we repent and put our faith in Jesus Christ...once we fall at His feet and say we are nothing but a hired servant, He welcomes us into His kingdom. In fact, He joyously waits for us to become Born Again, because he desires for none to perish and for all to have eternal life. In fact, I would say that the celebration that is shown in the story is just like when Jesus says that all Heaven rejoices over one sinner who repents! I definitely don't believe that parable is talking about someone who was Born Again becoming Born Again Again...
I don't think we have an issue with the God not letting sin into Heaven thing brother. My sins are covered in the blood, simple as that. I would argue that if someone went out and did that they aren't saved in the first place. Remember what the standard is for the definition of sin according to the Bible though, Romans 3:23- Falling short of the Glory of God. Jesus is the Glory of God and therefore falling short of Him is what I am talking about. There are times I get impatient with my wife. There are times that I discipline my son too harshly, etc. I am not talking about someone who calls themself a Christian and then goes out and cheats on his wife...
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 26, 2006 20:38:40 GMT -5
Your son may be legally your son but there is the offense (sin) that separates the two of you, just as in the life of a sinner or a saint who sins and God the Father. God does not wink at sin whether it be in an unrepentant sinner or a saint that has fallen into sin. That sin offense in order to be made right has to covered by the blood of Christ Jesus by confession and repentance and no other way.
1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." We are not all children of God. The word says there are children of God and children of the devil!
To say that the "lost son" was a lost sinner would mean he was "dead" to begin with and so therefore would only be made alive, not "alive again."
If a person who showed evidence of being a Christian turned away from God in the early church, they never thought it was a false conversion. Look at 1Tim.5:11-15 "As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan."
We can't turn away to follow Satan unless we were first following someone else! Since there is only one other possibility, they must have been following Jesus before they turned to start to follow Satan. Verse 11 verifies this: "when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ"
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 26, 2006 21:11:26 GMT -5
The whole book of 1 John was written for the purpose laid out in 1 John 5:13, "so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." Why would John want someone to know for sure if they could lose it eventually? I don't disagree that a true Christian will practice righteousness and a false-christian or non-christian will practice sin. That is what the whole book of 1 John is about and that is what the Greek says. The verse you quoted from 1 John gives no validity to someone losing their salvation. As far as the passage in 1 Timothy, let me address a couple of things. First of all, Paul is saying that the younger widows shouldn't be put on the list of being provided for by the Church because they are still young and desire to be sexually active. There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself. The older widows who were put on the list were widows who had decided to devote the rest of their lives to serving God without remarrying. All Paul was saying here is to not even bother putting them on the list because most will end up going back on their commitment to forsake marriage due to their wanting to be sexually active. Paul is not referring to immoral sexual activity, but to moral. The reason they incur judgement is because they end up going back on their pledge or commitment they made. And doing that merits chastisement and discipline (Numbers 30:2, Deuteronomy 23:21, Ecclesiastes 5:4-5). Who says that the judgement they receive is eternal judgement. Who says Paul is talking about Hell here? Where is the fatherly chastisement and discipline. I spank my son when he disobeys me, but I don't disown him and throw him into a lake of fire forever and ever. Whatever happened to Hebrews 11 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-34? Just because the Scripture says that someone "turns away" to follow Satan, doesn't mean they were Born Again and became UN-Born Again. I think 1 John 2:19 makes this situation quite clear, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." In fact, I would say that this verse destroys any argument you can put up. It says very clearly that is someone goes out from the fellowship of the Church that they were not truly of it's fellowship (spiritual) in the first place!
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 7:55:05 GMT -5
To say the "lost son was a sinner" would contradict scripture. Look at the passage again. Luke 15:11-32. Verse 11 states "There was a man who had two sons." The only way that we are God's sons is when we repent and trust in Jesus. No other way can this be true! To say he did not start out as a son of God contradicts scripture.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 8:18:08 GMT -5
To say the "lost son was a sinner" would contradict scripture. Look at the passage again. Luke 15:11-32. Verse 11 states "There was a man who had two sons." The only way that we are God's sons is when we repent and trust in Jesus. No other way can this be true! To say he did not start out as a son of God contradicts scripture. Like I said, this is disputable and I have made a good enough case on this Scripture. I would like to see you go back and try to refute some of the things that I said in my first post though ;D
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 8:23:05 GMT -5
I think 1 John 2:19 makes this situation quite clear, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." In fact, I would say that this verse destroys any argument you can put up. It says very clearly that is someone goes out from the fellowship of the Church that they were not truly of it's fellowship (spiritual) in the first place! To understand who John is referring to here you must put it into context and read verse 18 with it. He is not talking about believers or christians he is talking about those who apposed Jesus, the antichrists. 1 John 2:18-19 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."Read on further in the chapter and this becomes even clearer. You can see he is writing this warning about the antichrists who were trying to deceive the children of God with fase teaching and doctrines of devils. 1 John 2:18-27 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.This clearly is NOT a scripture that supports your arguement when you said: "It says very clearly that is someone goes out from the fellowship of the Church that they were not truly of it's fellowship (spiritual) in the first place!" because like it says he's speaking about the antichrists and the deceivers that were among them. Not false converts either!
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 8:34:32 GMT -5
Just because this Scripture is mentioning the word "AntiChrist(s)" doesn't mean it is referring to false prophets and false teachers. Can only false prophets and false teachers attempt to lead people who call themselves Christians away through deception? No, of course not. A close friend or family member can as well or even a stranger can lead a false convert away from the truth because they are not grounded in it and because they don't have the Holy Spirit who does anoint them leading them into all truth. All the word Anti-Christ means is "False Anointed One." It means someone who claims to be a Christian (hence therefore anointed by the Holy Spirit) and really isn't. They are falsely claiming to be a Christian but really aren't. They have departed from fellowship from whatever reason and do not follow in the doctrine of the Apostles...
|
|
|
Post by biblethumper on Apr 27, 2006 9:48:55 GMT -5
RevK, you're going to find yourself in an endless web of debate with no point of agreement as you discuss with certain individuals. Some have no desire other than to "be right" no matter what the cost. Careful, brother
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 9:56:22 GMT -5
Just because this Scripture is mentioning the word "AntiChrist(s)" doesn't mean it is referring to false prophets and false teachers. Can only false prophets and false teachers attempt to lead people who call themselves Christians away through deception? No, of course not. A close friend or family member can as well or even a stranger can lead a false convert away from the truth because they are not grounded in it and because they don't have the Holy Spirit who does anoint them leading them into all truth. All the word Anti-Christ means is "False Anointed One." It means someone who claims to be a Christian (hence therefore anointed by the Holy Spirit) and really isn't. They are falsely claiming to be a Christian but really aren't. They have departed from fellowship from whatever reason and do not follow in the doctrine of the Apostles... Brother, You can mince words all you want but that will not change the context or actual meaning of WHO the antichrists are that are spoken of here. The fact still remains: Verses 22 and 23 "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son." No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." The meaning of antichrist does not mean as you said "All the word Anti-Christ means is "False Anointed One." It means someone who claims to be a Christian (hence therefore anointed by the Holy Spirit) and really isn't." The meaning of an antichrist is someone who "denies the Father and the Son." No where does the Word say they claimed to be a christian. In fact they denied the Son so they don't have the Father either. (V.23) The antichrists spoken of are just that, opposing Christ or trying to replace Christ. They are not supposed "christians" they are deceivers trying to lead the Believers away from the truth. Please get this.
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 10:11:15 GMT -5
RevK, you're going to find yourself in an endless web of debate with no point of agreement as you discuss with certain individuals. Some have no desire other than to "be right" no matter what the cost. Careful, brother It is not a matter of me "being right," it is though a matter of what the Word of God says and doesn't say. It's that simple. I don't consider myself an Arminian either. I am Christian. I agree more with the teaching of the Arminian position because of the clear understanding of scripture. I am a follower of Jesus and His Word.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 10:32:07 GMT -5
Well, we definitely disagree with your interpretation of what that passage in 1 John says. I would consider people like Benny Hinn anti-Christs. They say they are anointed but really are not. The word Messiah literally means "anointed one." And anti means "against" or "fraud." So, these people (plural as it says in the verse) are against Jesus Christ, but they don't just come out and claim to be against him at first. If they were ALWAYS against Christ then they would have never of been in fellowship in the first place. People like Benny Hinn throw around the anointing like it is some magical power. People like him act as if they can control the Holy Spirit, when they can't. Benny Hinn is not truly anointed no matter what he says. His fruit proves it and he has deceived many people in the process. People follow him and almost worship him as if he is god. Benny Hinn claims to be for Jesus Christ when he is really an adversary of Jesus Christ. This would be a modern-day example of this verse in my mind. Or maybe even Billy Graham's first partner in ministry Charles Templeton. You can read more about him right here: www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i3/unbelief.asp
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 10:34:05 GMT -5
RevK, you're going to find yourself in an endless web of debate with no point of agreement as you discuss with certain individuals. Some have no desire other than to "be right" no matter what the cost. Careful, brother You know what...I realize that this probably isn't going to get anywhere. I have heard just about everything this is to here concering the Arminian position because I used to use them. I convinced many a man to believe they could lose their salvation. I am grieved now that I ever did that and hope to have a chance to reverse those people in the future...
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 10:42:20 GMT -5
I am also quite curious as to when Darc is going to get to the very clear points for my position in my opening statement. Everytime I have posted an opening statement like that, NONE of it EVER gets answered. Let's stop talking about the Benny Hinn's in 1 John and get back to what I have already presented ;D
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 14:34:04 GMT -5
I am also quite curious as to when Darc is going to get to the very clear points for my position in my opening statement. Everytime I have posted an opening statement like that, NONE of it EVER gets answered. Let's stop talking about the Benny Hinn's in 1 John and get back to what I have already presented ;D If you go back through the post thread you'll see we are still on topic. You have failed to make your point and the Word that I've given should be good enough to show you that you have a faulty position and it needs to be adjusted to be in alignment with the Word. Most of what you used in your opening has nothing to do with the issue of salvation. They are beautiful truths without connection to the topic, not all but most and I will get to them. You have tried to side step my rebutles but that is not good enough. Please answer them first and if you can, use the Word to show me where I am supposed to be off. Because your point of view is just that your point of view. I'm interested in what the Word has to say on the topic and so far I have blown your positin clean out of the water.
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 15:09:14 GMT -5
Well, we definitely disagree with your interpretation of what that passage in 1 John says. I would consider people like Benny Hinn anti-Christs. They say they are anointed but really are not. The word Messiah literally means "anointed one." And anti means "against" or "fraud." So, these people (plural as it says in the verse) are against Jesus Christ, but they don't just come out and claim to be against him at first. If they were ALWAYS against Christ then they would have never of been in fellowship in the first place. People like Benny Hinn throw around the anointing like it is some magical power. People like him act as if they can control the Holy Spirit, when they can't. Benny Hinn is not truly anointed no matter what he says. His fruit proves it and he has deceived many people in the process. People follow him and almost worship him as if he is god. Benny Hinn claims to be for Jesus Christ when he is really an adversary of Jesus Christ. This would be a modern-day example of this verse in my mind. Or maybe even Billy Graham's first partner in ministry Charles Templeton. You can read more about him right here: www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i3/unbelief.aspDisagree How? With what rebutle using the Word have you used? You said: "So, these people (plural as it says in the verse) are against Jesus Christ, but they don't just come out and claim to be against him at first." Where does it say this in scripture, that " they don't just come out and claim to be against him at first"? Your example of Benny Hinn is ok but it is not an example of the verse at hand. The scripture clearly says they are against Christ. It DOES NOT say they claimed to be Christian. That is reading something into the verse that just plainly is not there. You said: "If they were ALWAYS against Christ then they would have never of been in fellowship in the first place." This your assumption unless proven by scripture. We know there are non-Christians in church services even today who don't profess to be Christian and by their lifestyle they are antichrist. This is a known fact even today. Wouldn't you agree with that?
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 17:44:11 GMT -5
First of all brother, let's keep this discussion brotherly, ok? Let's refrain from using statements like these:
I don't think I have been prideful (and if I have, I apologize), but it seems you are being this way. If this is going to be a debate where we say, "I'm going to show him," then I will have no part of it. I have already been there done that on this MB and it gets ugly. I am not willing to operate in the flesh to prove my position. If, however, you want to have a discussion where we are both open-minded to each other, then let's keep going.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 17:46:25 GMT -5
I haven't side-stepped anything. If anything brother, I opened up with the first statements and you have done nothing but side-stepped them. And I don't know what you are talking about when you say this:
Because what I said in my opening statement had EVERYTHING to do with salvation.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 17:54:16 GMT -5
The Scripture says in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us..." This is obviously saying that they were once apart of "us." Who is the us John is referring to then? I assume that he is referring to the fellowship of the believers. If I am wrong, please show me.
It does say that they went out "from us." Benny Hinn seems to think that He is a Christian. Judging by his fruit, I don't think he is. He claims to be anointed and throws the anointing around like he is the one who can control it (which he doesn't really have in the first place). As I have said, and will say again, Messiah means "anointed one" and anti means "false" or "against." These Anti-Christs are "false anointed ones" who are "against Christ" (the real anointed one who anoints all his real Children) whether they all know it or not. Forgive me if my example doesn't measure up to your standard, but I am not perfect ;D
I agree wholeheartedly, but that has nothing to do with what I am talking about...
|
|
|
Post by evanschaible on Apr 27, 2006 18:13:46 GMT -5
RevK, It seems that you have a fancy with causing holy anger...
The biggest problem I have, personally with debates, is religious wisecracks.
But, How can one be "spewn out of the mouth of God" if they can never fall away?
How can God divorce a whole nation of people if eternal security is true?
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 19:46:08 GMT -5
Then there is the concept of being sealed. This is the Greek word sphragizo and it is found in numerous places in the New Testament. Just take a look at 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30. A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification. When seal was placed on a letter and sent to someone, the receiver could be assured that it truly was sent by the owner of that seal and that he approved of all the contents found within that letter. When an animal had a seal placed on it, it was a mark denoting ownership and denoting who’s protection and care that animal was under. The verses listed above speak of God sealing us and not sealing us with just anything, but with the seal of His Holy Spirit. This backs up Romans 8:16 and 1 John 3:9. The believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. And the Holy Spirit “is given as a pledge (or down payment) of our inheritance” ( Ephesians 1:14). The word translated as “pledge” is the Greek word harrabon and it literally means a first installment which secures a legal claim to the article in question, or makes a contract valid; a payment that obligates the contracting party to make further payments. When you put a down payment on something (house or car for example) and then you sign the contract to purchase it, you are in legal obligation to go through with the agreement signed. God is saying here, in these verses, that He put His Holy Spirit inside of us as a down payment to us showing his pledge to fulfill his promise to save us and bring us into His glorious presence in Heaven someday. If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise? Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? To say such a thing is to call God a liar. These are all very powerful scriptures and give much reassurance to those who are following Jesus right now. We are indeed sealed by the Holy Spirit upon entering by faith into the blood covenant with God who gives to us in the form of His Son's completed redemptive work on the Cross. This sealing happens when we become born again. You said "A seal in the time of Paul was used as a means of identification." The seal of the Holy Spirit is that, a mark that identifies us to God as His. The seal has everything to do with ownership, God's ownership. (2Cor 1:22,23) In the same way when a seal was put on a letter is was so the sender and receiver would know that it was real or genuine. That is how God knows if we are genuine, if we have the Spirit abiding in us as a seal (a mark) or not. Can this seal be broken? Yes. The seal on the letter was broken by the one receiving the letter to get to it's contents. Look at: 1 Thes 5:19 " Quench not the Spirit. (KJV) 1 Thes 5:19 " Do not put out the Spirit's fire" (NIV) If the Lord says "Quench not the Spirit" (KJV) or "Do not put out the Spirit's fire" (NIV) it must be possible to actually quench the Spirit or put out the Spirit's fire. The Lord did not warn or tell us this for no reason. If it is possible to do this then we must have to do certain things to insure we don't, because to do so would mean that we'd no longer have the Spirit within us. If the Spirit is not in us we have fallen away from grace. The Holy Spirit cannot live where there is sin and will leave. "Quench not the Spirit" It takes staying spiritually clean and pure before God to remain in the Spirit. You asked: " If someone is saved and then becomes “unsaved” does God then go back on His pledge, His promise?" By faith and obedience He pledges the Spirit to us. I am not sure of what promise you are speaking of revk but I do know the indwelling Spirit comes as a seal/mark to those of faith in Jesus. That being true then wouldn't it also be true that God would remove Himself from us in our turning away from Him? You asked: " Does God break the contract with the believer who has now become an “unbeliever”? The answer is Yes, but not because He wants to but because He has to. Because of a person's disobedience and turning away from God back into sin God has to remove Himself from that person because God cannot live where there is sin. That does not make God a liar though, it just upholds the truth. It is due to the person breaking the covenant, by disobedience and sinning that God removes Himself, not by anything originating from God though.
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 19:59:20 GMT -5
First of all brother, let's keep this discussion brotherly, ok? Let's refrain from using statements like these: I don't think I have been prideful (and if I have, I apologize), but it seems you are being this way. If this is going to be a debate where we say, "I'm going to show him," then I will have no part of it. I have already been there done that on this MB and it gets ugly. I am not willing to operate in the flesh to prove my position. If, however, you want to have a discussion where we are both open-minded to each other, then let's keep going. Brother, I am not saying you have been prideful. Not at all. To hold to the truth one must become adamant about seeking the truth, desiring the truth and delivering the truth. As God gives us new revelation of the truth of His Word He wants us to be the mouth piece to speak that by the use of His Word. My concern brother k is that it is dangerous to rely on one's feeling or belief or someone else's comments about what they think the Word is saying. Word interprets the Word. Amen. I desire to do just that, to let the Word speak the truth into our hearts so we can share in the blessing of being in right standing and alignment with His Word, not mine or yours. Because we can be deceived. Amen? That's why I keep saying use the Word. It is not personal by any means. Forgive me if I have wronged you. In Christ Darc
|
|
|
Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 27, 2006 20:20:36 GMT -5
The Scripture says in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us..." This is obviously saying that they were once apart of "us." Who is the us John is referring to then? I assume that he is referring to the fellowship of the believers. If I am wrong, please show me. It does say that they went out "from us." Benny Hinn seems to think that He is a Christian. Judging by his fruit, I don't think he is. He claims to be anointed and throws the anointing around like he is the one who can control it (which he doesn't really have in the first place). As I have said, and will say again, Messiah means "anointed one" and anti means "false" or "against." These Anti-Christs are "false anointed ones" who are "against Christ" (the real anointed one who anoints all his real Children) whether they all know it or not. Forgive me if my example doesn't measure up to your standard, but I am not perfect ;D I agree wholeheartedly, but that has nothing to do with what I am talking about... You said " The Scripture says in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us..." This is obviously saying that they were once apart of "us." Who is the us John is referring to then? I assume that he is referring to the fellowship of the believers. If I am wrong, please show me."Rev K, This is called pretexting a verse and that is when we pull a portion of the verse out of context to try to make a point. I've spoken to this scripture by bringing it into context in one of my last posts here and showed you the "they" were antichrists and were never a part of the believers. Read 1 John 2:18-27. A person sitting in a car doesn't make that person a car does it? Because an antichrist was sitting in the midst of Christians doesn't make that person a Christian either. Yes he is referring to the fellowship of believers. But you and I don't just become a Christian by association do we? No we don't and neither did these folks either. They started out against Christ and went out from the believers still against Christ.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 21:12:13 GMT -5
Brother I could just as well say that you are pretexting. I am not saying that these anti-Christs were ever Christians. I am saying they never were. If I said that they were ever Christians, that would support your view. I am saying that they were in the fellowship (in the church) and went out from it. This showed that they weren't Christians, whether they ever thought they were or not. How do you know that they never claimed to be Christians. That sounds like you are reading into it to me.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 21:14:27 GMT -5
RevK, It seems that you have a fancy with causing holy anger...The biggest problem I have, personally with debates, is religious wisecracks. But, How can one be "spewn out of the mouth of God" if they can never fall away? How can God divorce a whole nation of people if eternal security is true? Brother, you need to go buy a sense of humor from Wal Mart or something. Don't go throwing insults at me because you disagree with what I believe. If you are going to do that then don't bother even posting at all...
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 21:21:35 GMT -5
Just because you can grieve the Spirit of God doesn't mean you have lost Him. Once again, the Holy Spirit is a deposit, a guarantee that God will follow through. Can you give me chapter and verse that God says you can lose the Holy Spirit or an example of someone losing the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. Brother, you are DEFINITELY reading into things there...
No, God never removes His Holy Spirit from His children!
So, now God is a liar and an indian-giver? I don't think so. Again this goes back to the question of what is sin? It is Romans 3:23...falling short of the Glory of God. With that in mind, we ALL still fall short!
|
|
|
Post by Rodgers on Apr 27, 2006 22:14:44 GMT -5
1Sa 16:13 Samuel took the olive oil and anointed David in front of his brothers. Immediately the spirit of the LORD took control of David and was with him from that day on. Then Samuel returned to Ramah. 1Sa 16:14 The LORD's spirit left Saul, and an evil spirit sent by the LORD tormented him. 1Sa 16:15 His servants said to him, "We know that an evil spirit sent by God is tormenting you.
Isa 63:8 The LORD said, "They are my people; they will not deceive me." And so he saved them Isa 63:9 from all their suffering. It was not an angel, but the LORD himself who saved them. In his love and compassion he rescued them. He had always taken care of them in the past, Isa 63:10 but they rebelled against him and made his holy spirit sad. So the LORD became their enemy and fought against them.
Ephesians 4 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.<<<< WHY? Maybe the above verses give us a clue, only in the South can someone be saved and an enemy of God at the same time, oh Protestantism at it's worst!
|
|