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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 22:20:34 GMT -5
Here is what 1 John 3:6, 9 says, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"
These verses are about as clear as it can get. No one who continues in sin after saying "I am a Christian", "has either seen him or known him." And if someone is "born of God" (Born Again), they can't "practice sin" (what you would say causes someone to lose their salvation) because God's "seed", the Holy Spirit lives in Him and has given him a new nature (Ezekiel 36:25-27). The word "cannot" is the greek word "dunamai" where we get the English "dynamite" and it refers to ability (see its usage in Hebrews 7:25). Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them.
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 27, 2006 22:22:08 GMT -5
Also, what I said aboutRomans 8:29-30 is utterly UNANSWERABLE from your position. Also, what about Jeremiah 32:38-41, "They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul" ? It is similar to Ezekiel 36, except much stronger for the case of a truly Born Again Christian not being able to lose his salvation.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 28, 2006 8:06:13 GMT -5
Wow, RevK.... i'm going to be saving to my com all of this great teaching!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 28, 2006 19:17:47 GMT -5
I thank brother rodgersj for the input that gives scripture and verse for this. 1Sa 16:13 Samuel took the olive oil and anointed David in front of his brothers. Immediately the spirit of the LORD took control of David and was with him from that day on. Then Samuel returned to Ramah. 1Sa 16:14 The LORD's spirit left Saul, and an evil spirit sent by the LORD tormented him. 1Sa 16:15 His servants said to him, "We know that an evil spirit sent by God is tormenting you. What does it mean when the word says: "Quench not the Spirit." 1Thes5:19 (KJV)? It means do not snuff out or put out, as in put out a flame. This is proof that shows you can lose the Spirit. and if He is out then He is gone. I'm not reading anything but what the Word says.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 28, 2006 19:40:26 GMT -5
I just got off the phone with the man who led me to Jesus 11 years ago. He told me something wise. He told me all truth is truth, regardless of what men say (He's Arminian). He also said truth is revealed by the Spirit. Which is correct. Thus, if one refuses truth when presented over and oved (and I speak here of Christians) then why say more? ? It's useless. We must allow God to use what He has already caused us to give them. If they refuse, they refuse Him. Is it a matter of Salvation? Of course not. However, Jesus Christ cannot and must not be pleased at this stuff. Why? he told us to shake the dust off of our feet if we are not received (that referred to Evangelism yet can also apply here). So... How much more doctrine can one give? I'm certain that some calvinists and arminians are as lost as they claim they aren't.... so that means we will NEVER reach them because some are not even saved. (NO, I am NOT referring to anyone here... I am simply making a point) May GOD be glorified...not some petty doctrinal debate.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 28, 2006 20:04:28 GMT -5
So, now God is a liar and an indian-giver? I don't think so. Again this goes back to the question of what is sin? It is Romans 3:23...falling short of the Glory of God. With that in mind, we ALL still fall short! I didn't say "God is a liar and an indian-giver". What I have said, if you read what I wrote then you'll see where I said " but not because He wants to but because He has to. Because of a person's disobedience and turning away from God back into sin God has to remove Himself from that person because God cannot live where there is sin." Pretty clear what I am saying here. It is not what God does that makes Him "break the contract with the believer" but because of one's disobedience and turning from Him that He does. God is Holy and Righteous He has to because as the Word says "he cannot disown Himself": 2 Timothy 2:11-13 11Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. This passage says it all. Peter disowned Jesus which means it is possible for a Christian to disown Jesus and if we "turned away to follow Satan" (1Tim5:15) and become faithless He will remain faithful to Himself, to His holiness, to His hatred of sin to His upholding His justice and disown us. In other words He will not go back on who He is just because we are disobedient and turn away from Him. He cannot disown Himself, in otherwords: God is God in all His glory and who He is will forever remain the same. To say that he wouldn't disown would deny God part of His attributes. You know what a covenant is don't you? Is it about one controlling partner or two willing partners?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 28, 2006 20:36:31 GMT -5
However, Jesus Christ cannot and must not be pleased at this stuff. Why? he told us to shake the dust off of our feet if we are not received (that referred to Evangelism yet can also apply here). So... How much more doctrine can one give? I'm certain that some calvinists and arminians are as lost as they claim they aren't.... so that means we will NEVER reach them because some are not even saved. (NO, I am NOT referring to anyone here... I am simply making a point) May GOD be glorified...not some petty doctrinal debate. Jesus will be very happy as the entire truth is given and also understood by those who are Christian. To believe in a false doctrine is deadly. Please don't say this about Jesus. As you know He spent much of His ministry rebuking false teaching/teachers and heresies and religious cults. This was a HUGE issue in His and the Apostles day and it still remains to be an enormous problem today and it will continue to be as time goes on, because Satan's time is short and he will do everything he can possibly do to decieve you and me and drag us off into hell with him!! If you don't think this is a possibility be careful you may fall yourself! Look at all of the warnings of this in the New Testament. 1Peter 5:8,9 "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings."One off Satan's biggest tricks is false doctrine. Jesus Christ defeated Satan at the Cross and His ressurection so the way Satan operates is by trying his best to water down scripture and get people to believe only what sounds good while pushing aside the other half of the Truth! I submit to you these pairs of truths: We are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8,9), but we can fall from grace (Gal. 5:2-4).[/u] We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), but our faith can cease to exist (Luke 8:13; Rom. 11:19-23) and become shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19,20).[/u] We are not under the law (Rom. 6:14,15), but if you live according to the sinful nature you will die (Rom. 8:13).[/u] Paul taught against legalism (Gal. 5:3,4), but among other things he taught: But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them (Eph. 5:3-6). We are not saved by works (Eph. 2:8,9), but to reap eternal life and not destruction, you must sow to please the Spirit and not the sinful nature (Gal. 6:8,9).[/u] God is faithful to us (1 John 1:9; 1 Cor. 10:13), but we must be faithful to him to the very end of our lives to escape the lake of fire, or second death (Rev. 2:10,11).[/u] God surely loves us (John 3:16; Mk. 10:21; Rom. 8:35-39), but those who inherit the kingdom of God love God (James 2:5 cf. 1 Cor. 2:9). And to love God means to obey his commandments (Jn. 14:15; 1 John 5:3).[/u] We have freedom in Christ (Gal. 5:1), but this freedom is not to indulge the sinful nature (Gal. 5:13; 1 Pet. 2:16).[/u]
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 28, 2006 21:09:06 GMT -5
So we can bring to closure that these antichrists really were always antichrists and that they had always been there in the fellowship of believers let's go to God's Word.
This is how we know the antichrists have always been in the fellowship right along with believers as they were in the 1 John 2:18-27 passage.
"Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
" 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " Matt 13:24-30)
Jesus said this so we would know to watch out for the enemy. As you can see the enemy came right in behind Jesus and planted his deceivers, antichrists and false teachers. They were not false converts. There is no such thing. You either ARE converted or you're NOT. There's no gray area with this subject. we can know if they are or if they are not, there's no question.
"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 28, 2006 22:17:35 GMT -5
Here is what 1 John 3:6, 9 says, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"These verses are about as clear as it can get. No one who continues in sin after saying "I am a Christian", "has either seen him or known him." And if someone is "born of God" (Born Again), they can't "practice sin" (what you would say causes someone to lose their salvation) because God's "seed", the Holy Spirit lives in Him and has given him a new nature ( Ezekiel 36:25-27). The word "cannot" is the greek word "dunamai" where we get the English " dynamite" and it refers to ability (see its usage in Hebrews 7:25). Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. "Please remember this truth about Bible understanding: Examine ALL related Scriptures on any issue. If a scripture is isolated and other related Scriptures are ignored one can get a VERY wrong understanding of Scripture." by Dan Corner Such as with John 11:4: "When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it."If one reads others Scriptures, especially the context, it is clear that Lazarus did DIE but Jesus raised him from the grave. Remembering all of that let's use that same basic truth for 1 John 3:9:"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."In light of other Scriptures, regarding those that have been "born of God," has anyone sinned and continued in sin? YES. One example is the unnamed in John 6:66 who did to such a degree they NEVER returned to God. This is truth we must consider for 1 John 3:9. God's seed must not have continued to remain in him [them], as 1 John 3:9 would say.Can a real Christian sin? ABSOLUTELY. Can a real Christian continue to sin when God's seed remains in him? NO. Can a real Christian continue to sin when God's seed doesn't remains in him? YES.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 28, 2006 22:31:18 GMT -5
Also, what I said about Romans 8:29-30 is utterly UNANSWERABLE from your position. Also, what about Jeremiah 32:38-41, "They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul" ? It is similar to Ezekiel 36, except much stronger for the case of a truly Born Again Christian not being able to lose his salvation. Let's look at some more of the related scriptures such as Ezekiel 18:24-28 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die."
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Post by Kerrigan on Apr 29, 2006 0:15:09 GMT -5
I just got off the phone with the man who led me to Jesus 11 years ago. He told me something wise. He told me all truth is truth, regardless of what men say (He's Arminian). He also said truth is revealed by the Spirit. Which is correct. Thus, if one refuses truth when presented over and oved (and I speak here of Christians) then why say more? ? It's useless. We must allow God to use what He has already caused us to give them. If they refuse, they refuse Him. Is it a matter of Salvation? Of course not. However, Jesus Christ cannot and must not be pleased at this stuff. Why? he told us to shake the dust off of our feet if we are not received (that referred to Evangelism yet can also apply here). So... How much more doctrine can one give? I'm certain that some calvinists and arminians are as lost as they claim they aren't.... so that means we will NEVER reach them because some are not even saved. (NO, I am NOT referring to anyone here... I am simply making a point) May GOD be glorified...not some petty doctrinal debate. You know what brother...I am beginning to think that this is useless. I really don't have the time for this in the first place. I know that what I believe is True and Darc "knows" what he believes is true. Let's just leave it at that. There is nothing you have shown that has changed my mind and even though I believe I have shown VERY ample evidence, I am sure that I have not convinced you of anything either Darc. God Bless you as you seek to save the lost!
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 29, 2006 9:52:39 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by chobbs66 on Apr 29, 2006 10:19:32 GMT -5
Rev K,
You wrote:
"If such a person...who TRULY was saved....then loses their salvation, we have to ask ourselves this question: Which sin or sins aren’t covered by the Blood of Jesus? Which sin or sins did Jesus’ Blood not have the power to save that person from? Is the Blood of Jesus not powerful enough to save us from ALL our sins?"
I agree that the blood of Jesus is powerful enough to forgive all sins. But we must confess and repent to receive that forgiveness.
2 Peter chapter 1 says:
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
The past sins are forgiven, the future ones must be repented of. Anything else is an excuse for sin, or a license for immorality.
Love in Christ, Cal
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 29, 2006 10:21:29 GMT -5
This grieves me and saddens me to no end. To say "this is useless", I believe, is to not have an appreciation of God's Word. What have we become a people like those during Christ's day and the time of the Apostles, where God spoke ALL of these truths to His people (us) to warn them of many heresies and when we read the same truths we mock God and say 'that's what it says, but that's not what God meant?' I did not come on here to come to this end. For this to happen is tragic to say the least. My prayer is for everyone, including myself, that we would honor God's Word drawing close to it and not using it to fit a doctrine we want and sounds good but to understand the Word fully and have that become our doctrine. I want to say that the Eternal Security proponents say in so many words "I'm not saying that eternal security is a license for immorality", but I submit to you it is. To say I can never lose my salvation is the same thing as saying King David was a righteous man when he committed adultery with Uriah's wife Bathsheba and murdered her husband Uriah and that he was just out of communion with God and didn't lose his salvation is horrendous! It gives the idea to Christians, that I can do like David and still be saved! And you wonder why we have so many christians that you can't tell the difference between them and the world? They may have once been saved but have since slipped back into the world and are lost again. Read the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:20,21. At the end I will stand on the Word of God and not on what someone thinks it says. I used to believe the eterenal security message but then God peeled the scales off my eyes.
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 29, 2006 11:19:06 GMT -5
You see, Revk? You will go nowhere....you have seen how OSAS proponents are accused of teaching a license to sin, though we teach no such thing.
My uncle, Revk, is a Calvinist Baptist Pastor, saved for 35 years, and guess what? He never once went back into the world nor once "fell away" and he believes and defends the OSAS postion.
Humm.... seems, Revk, that some are willing ti lie about what we truly teach, as we have, over and over again, told them consistently, that we teach Holiness.
Thus, why debate with those who twist, deliberately, our words?
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 29, 2006 12:57:25 GMT -5
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 29, 2006 15:19:47 GMT -5
Well then, 1) I never insulted you 2) you didnt answer my objections.
We can interpret the Bible and debate all day long, but what about Isreal and Laodicea?
"Take heed BRETHREN, lest their be in any of you a evil heart of unbelief, DEPARTING from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any OF YOU be hardened through the decietfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12,13)
How do you interpret this verse?
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Post by biblethumper on Apr 29, 2006 21:23:29 GMT -5
Evan! You're giving a powerful Gospel presentation to the other forum posters! I want thank you, Evan... you're preachin' it and it's awesome!
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Post by aaron on Apr 29, 2006 22:38:21 GMT -5
Keep at it Darc! What you are preaching is the truth of Gods word. Its great to hear you teach. OSAS is a license to sin. You may not yourself sin but if you teach the doctrine to others and they probably will. Read Ezk. 18, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin he will perish.
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Post by Rodgers on Apr 29, 2006 23:23:38 GMT -5
Well I am know English Major, nor Greek and Hebrew. However, it seems if a person is being warned about departing from the living God this implies two things, one, a person can depart from the living God and two, they must be with the living God to depart from Him. I am no bible scholar and I have not seminary degree, but I do have a brain and I do love God. Then again the apostles didn't have any formal education either. In fact the people with the bible degrees looked down upon them for teaching false doctrine. Humm, Humm!
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Post by evanschaible on Apr 30, 2006 10:08:09 GMT -5
Biblethumper, It is a joy to be of use to the Lord in claiming the souls for whom he died (all people) and it is a tragedy when those for whom Christ died rebel against him. I thank you for the link brother.
RevK, As of yet you have offered no anwswer to my questions, Why? Please, if you will, offer me you view on the state of Isreal (God divorced them) and Laodicea (they will be spewn out of the mouth of God). Also the scripture I qouted above.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 30, 2006 16:25:55 GMT -5
If one can't lose their salvation and Once Saved Always Save/ Perseverance of the Saints/ Eternal Security is true then why has God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit warned us and commanded us to....
1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul 1 Peter 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1 Thes. 5:22 Avoid every kind of evil. 1 Tim. 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1 Cor 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters 1 Cor. 16:13 13Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith 2 Cor. 6:17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." Eph 4:26 In your anger do not sin 1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." 2 Peter 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Rev. 2:10b Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. Rev. 3:19b So be earnest, and repent.
1 Cor. 6:9-10 Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Rom. 12:2a Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Rom. 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 1 Cor 15:33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character 2 Cor. 6:14-15 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? Gal. 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.?? and so on and so on. I could literally fill up pages of these kinds of warnings and commands given to the church/saints in the New Testament. (well over 1,000 of them) Which means this is instruction given to brothers and sisters and us after salvation. and all given by the Lord Jesus and His apostles who all taught salvation is by grace and not by works
The warnings and commands are given to help keep us on the straight and narrow by reverent fear of God and His Word to not become conceited and fall away and to endure to the very end. Not by works or legalism either, just plain obedient faith in Jesus and belief in the whole rest of Scripture given to us that's all.
If eternal security were true then it seems like the only command would be "believe" and nothing else would've needed to be said...but that's NOT the case is it?
In love and in Jesus, Darc
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Post by evanschaible on May 1, 2006 10:58:46 GMT -5
RevK, I WOULD MUCH APPRECIATE AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTIONS. They are listed above along with a scripture. CAN YOU ANSWER?
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 7:09:17 GMT -5
I take issue with the "God divorced Israel" part.
Why?
First, He divorced ISRAEL, the nation.
Second, nowhere do you find God saying nor doing this to an INDIVIDUAL.
Lastly, and I will post more on this, so this'll just be the intial posting, so to speak.... but watch, was God's divorcing a permanent one?
Also, what does His divorcing a NATION have to do with Him in any way showing us anything about losing Salvation?
The fact of the Nation being divorced and remarried only strengthens my resolve in OSAS.
God took Her (the NATION) back and it is the same today, in relation to the CORPORATE Church; though She's fallen into Apostasy, God loves Her (the CHURCH) and will not forsake Her.
You cannot apply something pre-Cross, dealing specifically with a nation, and not an individual, to NT doctrine.
Sure, OT is inspired as are all 66 Books of the Bible.
However, when you begin comparing a God;s dealing with a NATION to today's dealings of God with INDIVIDUALS, and when that nation is Isrrael, you begin to drift far far far from what God's Word teaches and you go off into Replacement Theology.
See, using the Nation of Israel here in the context you have done here is a method os exegesisi which CALVINISTS use, ironically....
You cannot blend and mold God's dealings with Israel into today's Church.
To even consider doing such is Replacement Theology.
No Messianc nor Orthodox Jew would differ.
You've used Israel to "prove" what Scripture doesn't say.
You show some figurative type of divorce and show that a Christian can "lose" it.
The divorce you show was never the final say, not to mention it's simply not applicable here in the context of your theology.
However, let's finish the thought off with:
Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Sure, God may cast away false converts, but I see here He does not cast away HIS People.
HIS People don't "lose" Salvation or become "divorced".
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
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Post by evanschaible on May 2, 2006 17:24:19 GMT -5
It is a figure of speeach brother. The nation of Isreal is made of millions of INDIVIDUALS who were once so close to God that they were lead through the desert by His very presence. But now, they have fell from that postition. That is my point.
Okay, what about Laodicea? You know, the CHURCH (believers) that had become carnal and thought they needed nothing from God. I suppose you will say they were false converts all that time. Utterly rediculous, why did Jesus address them as the "Church in Laodicea"?
They will be "spewn" out of the mouth of God.
In your view John the revelator and Jesus himself were mistaken. Show me proof from scripture that eternal security is true. You cant, it is like trying to prove you have to talk in toungues to be saved, all you can do is pull scripture out of context and twist them to fit you view.
But you accuse me of exactly that same thing, twisting scripture. I would love it if we could never fall from grace, but that isnt what the Bible teaches.
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 18:15:32 GMT -5
EDIT:
Evan, your Gospel is pure as I have seen it.
i wanna join with you in what we agree on; my heart doesn't want to debate this issue because it's silly now... only because we BOTH love holiness.
That's a basis for fellowship.
I love you brother.
My heart is flowing with the Love of God right now.
I had to delete my dumb explaination.
I just want to walk with you because i see your Gospel and Holiness message is also mine.
Amen
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 2, 2006 19:42:14 GMT -5
Jesus said......
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." John 15:1-8
Jesus is very clear about the condition of one's salvation, that He gives to us so freely, as He speaks this truth to His disciples, our brothers in Christ. Now does anyone really believe that eternal security is what the Lord Jesus taught?
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Post by biblethumper on May 2, 2006 20:14:02 GMT -5
DARC, why are you persistent like this? ? Ok, we understand what you've been saying over and over again...I get it, Darc.No need to go further.Just stop.Stop. I'm telling you, Darc, there's something wrong about you.I may be called judgmental or evil or false or whatever. I'm willing to risk my reputation for the integrity of Scripture. Your spirit is not right. You are of a divisive spirit. You aren;t trying to HELP but to HURT. You can lie about it, exaggerate, pretend what I'm saying is untrue or un-Christ like.... It makes no difference. I know the Voice of the Shepherd, Darc. His Voice tells me that you're not of a right spirit. Stop it. In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I command you to stop this now. In the Name of Jesus, Darc, obey the Holy Spirit's leading and stop this.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 2, 2006 20:23:59 GMT -5
Listen to the Savior, listen to the Word and obey....it has nothing to do with me. These are the eternal words of the Lord Jesus, period. Take in the Word.
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Post by Miles Lewis on May 2, 2006 21:17:08 GMT -5
2 Samuel 7:14-16 (King James Version)
14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
This verse is very interesting to me. It can be used by both OSAS and conditional security proponents. I'd be curious to hear whar Dan Corner has to say about this.
Nevertheless... I do believe Saul was not just some false convert, but one who had the spirit of God, was a chosen vessel used by God, yet he fell from grace if you will, was cut off, "lost" his salvation. I have no reason to believe Saul will be in heaven.
Miles
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