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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 14, 2006 15:20:18 GMT -5
I appreciate you speaking to my responses to you in regard to brother Dan, however can you speak to the scriptural truthes of Ezek. 18:24; 33:18; Rom. 8:13; James 5:19,20 in regard to their clear refutation of Preseverance of the Saints/OSAS/Eternal Security doctrine?I'll ask this again.
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Post by biblethumper on May 14, 2006 17:47:30 GMT -5
I have read of pro- cs (conditional security) advocates who use cs as a "license to sin." They can get drunk on Saturday and therefore lose their salvation, they believe, but then turn around on Sunday, ask God for forgiveness and once again "be saved." -Lion Of Judah Site owner
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Post by av1611 on May 15, 2006 1:19:00 GMT -5
I haven't read all of this topic, but what I saw concerned me. I take the position "once saved always saved". There is no doubt that the Bible teaches that...True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because:
1)They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23).
2)They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).
3)His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish (John 10:28).
4) Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).
5) They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).
6) The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).
7) Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (l Corinthians 3:10-15).
8) God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).
9) They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).
10 )They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).
11) The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23).
12) God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for "their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).
13) They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (l Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).
14) They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (l Corinthians 12:12-27).
15) They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (l Peter 1:5).
16) Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (l Peter l:l-4).
17) They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).
18) Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (l John 1:7-9).
19) He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
20) They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).
21) Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).
22) By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).
23) They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).
24) Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).
25) No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).
26) All who are justified are finally glorified—none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).
27) In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).
28) The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37;17:2).
Preacher Robert Hulewicz
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 15, 2006 12:25:27 GMT -5
I haven't read all of this topic, but what I saw concerned me. I take the position "once saved always saved". There is no doubt that the Bible teaches that...True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because: 1)They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23). 2)They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21). 3)His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish (John 10:28). 4) Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3). 5) They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6). 6) The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9). 7) Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (l Corinthians 3:10-15). 8) God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32). 9) They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10). 10 )They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23). 11) The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23). 12) God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for "their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13). 13) They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (l Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22). 14) They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (l Corinthians 12:12-27). 15) They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (l Peter 1:5). 16) Their incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (l Peter l:l-4). 17) They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7). 18) Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (l John 1:7-9). 19) He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25). 20) They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6). 21) Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39). 22) By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14). 23) They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8). 24) Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2). 25) No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29). 26) All who are justified are finally glorified—none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30). 27) In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9). 28) The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37;17:2). Preacher Robert Hulewicz Robert, I appreciate how you have established our Lord and Savior's position very well. He will never let His end of the covenant down, never, however if you read the New Testament and the Old Testament you'll see what our responsibility is to our end of the covenant that God enters into with us as believers. Take for example. Ezek. 18:24"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."or Romans 8:13"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."What do these type of scriptures mean to you? How is it possible for the scriptures you've put out there and the ones I've just put out here exist together in God's holy writ? For it is clear that the righteous can die spiritually according to these two. We know it's not physical death spoken of here either, for we know both sinners and saints will die physically no matter what. To be dead spiritually means to be seperated from God. Looking forward to reasoning with you. In Jesus, Darc
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Post by Doc H on May 16, 2006 20:14:01 GMT -5
Darc,
Very good Scriptures. Let me see if I can give you an answer that might just challenge your position on eternal security.
Ezek. 18:24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Let's just back up a few verses all the way back to verse 5. If verses 5-24 are dealing with eternal life, then surely we would have to conclude that salvation is by works (v 5-9), if you conclude that verse 24 teaches that the righteous may eventually be lost. Perhaps verse 20 is talking about the punishment that is TEMPORAL, not eternal. It is PHYSICAL death because of sin now.
Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
I agree that those who live according to the flesh must die both physically and eternally. To live according to the flesh is to be UNSAVED (v 8:4-5). So why does Paul address this to those who were already saved? Does it imply that some of them might eventually be lost as you seem to suggest? I don't think so. You often see Paul writing words of warning and self-examination in his Epistles, realizing that in every congregation there are true and false converts. I believe the latter part of verse 13 describes what is characteristically true of a true convert. Through the help of the Holy Spirit they mortify the deeds of the flesh. They enjoy eternal life now, and will enter into the fullness of life when they leave the earth.
I hope this has been of help to you.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 16, 2006 21:12:06 GMT -5
Doc, So if that were true, what you are saying about the Rom. 8 passage, then I suppose you would now tell me that King David was a false convert, too? He clearly lived after the flesh as an adulterer and murderer, so would that make him someone who was never really saved to begin with?
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Post by Doc H on May 16, 2006 22:04:37 GMT -5
Doc, So if that were true, what you are saying about the Rom. 8 passage, then I suppose you would now tell me that King David was a false convert, too? He clearly lived after the flesh as an adulterer and murderer, so would that make him someone who was never really saved to begin with? King David was an OT saint. He was not indwelled by the Holy Ghost like born again believer's are today. In OT times the Holy Ghost was given and then taken away as God willed. What do you think King David meant by this: 'Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.' (Psalm 51:11) Does this apply to christians today?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 17, 2006 6:35:17 GMT -5
Doc, So if that were true, what you are saying about the Rom. 8 passage, then I suppose you would now tell me that King David was a false convert, too? He clearly lived after the flesh as an adulterer and murderer, so would that make him someone who was never really saved to begin with? King David was an OT saint. He was not indwelled by the Holy Ghost like born again believer's are today. In OT times the Holy Ghost was given and then taken away as God willed. What do you think King David meant by this: 'Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.' (Psalm 51:11) Does this apply to christians today? King David was righteous for the same reason you and I are righteous Doc, by faith. Hebrews 11 speaks of the righteous and it was and will always be by faith. By faith in who? By faith in the Christ. The faith that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph all had and the same faith that ALL the old testament saints had is no different than ours to this day. "So he sent and had him brought in. He was ruddy, with a fine appearance and handsome features. Then the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one." So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah. Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him." 1 Samuel 16:12-14 Clearly the Holy Spirit was with David "from that day on" as the scripture says. "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." Psalm 51:11This is David, after his sin of adultery and murder, against God, in which he is clearly pleading with God and repenting before God of his sin. David understood the effects of his sin against God for he saw what sin did in the relation with God in the person of Saul. This sin must have weighed heavily on David's heart and conscience to the point where he knew he must repent or suffer the same consequences as Saul. To answer your question, "Does this apply to christians today?", yes it does. Sin is still the issue even after salvation to a Christian. The Holy Spirit, God and Jesus can't live in sin or around a person's sin. A Christian's future sins will always need to be confessed and repented of and put under the blood. To say they are automatically forgiven goes against ALL of scripture.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 17, 2006 7:47:46 GMT -5
Darc, Very good Scriptures. Let me see if I can give you an answer that might just challenge your position on eternal security. Ezek. 18:24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Let's just back up a few verses all the way back to verse 5. If verses 5-24 are dealing with eternal life, then surely we would have to conclude that salvation is by works (v 5-9), if you conclude that verse 24 teaches that the righteous may eventually be lost. Perhaps verse 20 is talking about the punishment that is TEMPORAL, not eternal. It is PHYSICAL death because of sin now. So then by your position the "life" and "death" spoken of in this passage are temporal? Temporally to live and temporally to die? 19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Ezekiel 18:19-28 NIV I submit to you that The Word is speaking of spiritual life and spiritual death. For it doesn't make any sense to say it is temporal death or physical death because it is fact that both sinner and saint WILL automatically die a physical death. This is part of the original curse that we still live under. Verse 21 says "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die." What is the Word saying here, when He says "he will surely live"? How is the righteous man spoken of here in this passage made righteous?
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Post by Doc H on May 18, 2006 20:01:00 GMT -5
A Christian's future sins will always need to be confessed and repented of and put under the blood. To say they are automatically forgiven goes against ALL of scripture.
I agree. But positionally you are saved however, if you do not confess and repent of your sins then your fellowship with God is broken. Your earthly father will always be your father what ever you may do, but your relationship with him maybe broken. The same with our Heavenly Father, if you have been truly born again then you can truly call Him Abba, father. You are no longer a child of the devil but a child of God. Of course God like a loving father will chasten you for your sin but not punish you for it in Hell.
SALVATION: Justification-saved from the penalty of sin ie hell....PAST
Sanctification-being saved from the power of sin by not walking according to the flesh but the Spirit. This is a continuous struggle for a true convert ...PRESENT CONTINOUS
Glorification-saved from the presence of sin when taken to heaven...FUTURE
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Post by Doc H on May 18, 2006 20:04:05 GMT -5
So Darc,
The other verses in Ezekiel must be saying that you are saved by works?
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 18, 2006 21:22:22 GMT -5
So Darc, The other verses in Ezekiel must be saying that you are saved by works? Nice try Doc, but what do you think? I say that as a conditional security believer, that I believe I am saved just like you. By God's grace. By faith in the Christ alone. My salvation is complete in Jesus. Jesus has made my salvation possible by His completed work on the Cross. Jesus is the author and finisher of my salvation and the gift of eternal life will always be there, as long as I abide in Jesus. I will not ever be without His security and protection as long as I am abiding in Him. 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 18, 2006 21:28:15 GMT -5
Darc, Very good Scriptures. Let me see if I can give you an answer that might just challenge your position on eternal security. Ezek. 18:24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Let's just back up a few verses all the way back to verse 5. If verses 5-24 are dealing with eternal life, then surely we would have to conclude that salvation is by works (v 5-9), if you conclude that verse 24 teaches that the righteous may eventually be lost. Perhaps verse 20 is talking about the punishment that is TEMPORAL, not eternal. It is PHYSICAL death because of sin now. So then by your position the "life" and "death" spoken of in this passage are temporal? Temporally to live and temporally to die? 19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Ezekiel 18:19-28 NIV I submit to you that The Word is speaking of spiritual life and spiritual death. For it doesn't make any sense to say it is temporal death or physical death because it is fact that both sinner and saint WILL automatically die a physical death. This is part of the original curse that we still live under. Verse 21 says "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die." What is the Word saying here, when He says "he will surely live"? How is the righteous man spoken of here in this passage made righteous? Doc, I would like for you to address these questions that I asked, that were in response to your original comments. It doesn't seem like either of your last two responses did. Thank you.
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Post by av1611 on May 19, 2006 8:17:31 GMT -5
For one thing, quote using the Bible (not the NIV - Non Inspired Version). If you want to quote from the NIV, at least quote Acts 8:37 for us all.
Secondly, do you people understand dispensations and Bible heremenutics? Your mixing one dispensation with another and therefore producing false doctrine by claiming someone saved needs to work at his salvation (abide in Him to remain saved) in order to stay saved. Are any of you Roman Catholics here? Salvation is by the grace of God...such arrogance to think that you abiding and "keeping the commandments of God" will ensure your security as a believer! You and I are wretched sinners, who not only cannot SAVE ourselves, we also can't SECURE ourselves! My Bible saith:
These things have I written unto you that believe on the Name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have Eternal Life, and that ye may believe on the Name of the Son of God 1 John 5:13
I can KNOW I have eternal life, how can that be true if a lie after salvation is enough to send me to Hell? Fair dinkum!...Get yourself a real Bible - AV1611 and let the Holy Ghost illuminate and teach you the truths of the Bible! I'm all for the preaching of repentence, but repentence is a change of mind - not becoming sinless, that is a false doctrine.
Preacher Robert Hulewicz
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Post by biblethumper on May 19, 2006 8:31:26 GMT -5
Av, I agree that we did nothing to earn it and we do nothing to keep it.
True Saving Faith produces a holy walk; a holy walk doesn't produce true saving faith
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Post by newsong on May 19, 2006 9:42:37 GMT -5
AMEN!
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 19, 2006 13:00:04 GMT -5
For one thing, quote using the Bible (not the NIV - Non Inspired Version). If you want to quote from the NIV, at least quote Acts 8:37 for us all. Secondly, do you people understand dispensations and Bible heremenutics? Your mixing one dispensation with another and therefore producing false doctrine by claiming someone saved needs to work at his salvation (abide in Him to remain saved) in order to stay saved. Are any of you Roman Catholics here? Salvation is by the grace of God...such arrogance to think that you abiding and "keeping the commandments of God" will ensure your security as a believer! You and I are wretched sinners, who not only cannot SAVE ourselves, we also can't SECURE ourselves! My Bible saith: These things have I written unto you that believe on the Name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have Eternal Life, and that ye may believe on the Name of the Son of God 1 John 5:13 I can KNOW I have eternal life, how can that be true if a lie after salvation is enough to send me to Hell? Fair dinkum!...Get yourself a real Bible - AV1611 and let the Holy Ghost illuminate and teach you the truths of the Bible! I'm all for the preaching of repentence, but repentence is a change of mind - not becoming sinless, that is a false doctrine. Preacher Robert Hulewicz First of all, I did not enter your little divisive discussion about what version, so please don't force that on me. I have my own opinion about it but that will stay with me. If you what to use the KJV then feel free to "translate". This will be the second time I use straw man in a day. Must be a trend. I'm sorry, did I enter another other zone? Us people may not know what you're speaking about there av. So are you saying by your "dispensations and Bible heremenutics" that you're denying John 15:1-6? No, no Roman Catholic here av. I'm no sinner either, by the grace of God! He has made me a saint through the precious blood of Jesus, by faith! It's not arrogance either. It's me doing what I've been told to do and that's called obedience. With all your "education" do not miss the understanding of the Word. I'll get back with you on the rest.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 19, 2006 19:52:50 GMT -5
av1611, Tell me again what your definition of repentence is.
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Post by biblethumper on May 19, 2006 22:16:10 GMT -5
I trust more in the Blood of Jesus than in a doctrine which attacks the Blood of Jesus.
*that statement is referring to Cornerism*
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Post by av1611 on May 20, 2006 7:15:08 GMT -5
Oh, continue using your pen knife in the battle, that's fine with me...I will take the Sword Bible hermeneutics, is the science of interpreting Scripture in it's historical and textual context, something that is lacking in this discussion. John 15:1-6. Firstly, you need to realize you have a POSITION in Christ, and a RELATIONSHIP with Christ. Your POSITION in Christ is when you accept him as your personal Saviour...your forever eternally secured, washed in the blood of the Lamb. Your RELATIONSHIP however, depends on your walk with God and your obedience to His commands. Your POSITION never changes, yet depending on you, your RELATIONSHIP does. The words "fruit" and "abide" (and their derivatives) are mentioned constantly in this passage, so therefore we know the theme of the verses: 1) Bearing fruit 2) Abiding Abiding is not referring to your POSITION in Christ, but rather your RELATIONSHIP with Christ. Why? How do you produce fruit? By merely "accepting Christ"? No, by walking with Him (relationship) you bear fruit. You cannot bear fruit from just being saved, it's what you do AFTER that, that bringeth forth the fruit! Positionally we always abide in God's love - Romans 8:37,37 You are no sinner? So your perfect after your salvation? Is that what you are claiming? Funny that, Paul wasn't perfect after his salvation, in actual fact he claimed to be the chief of sinners! So I guess Paul lost his salvation didn't he...and I was looking so forward to meeting him! POSITIONALLY in Christ all those that are saved have been justified...but RELATIONSHIP wise, you are not sinless and never will be until you receive your glorified body at the rapture. If your honestly claiming your sinless, boy...you do have some nerve! I assumed you were Catholic because you are teaching you need to work (keep the commandments of God, abide in Him etc), in order to keep your salvation, that is a faith + works teaching, heresy. Much education? Mate, read your Bible! 6 year old Filipino boys in my church whose second language is English know this doctrine! It is a fundamental of the faith...Look at Acts 8:37 in your Bible (quote it for us), good verse to show eternal security. Preacher Robert Hulewicz
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Post by av1611 on May 20, 2006 7:17:56 GMT -5
Amen.
Repentence: A change of mind, from unbelief to belief, not a turning away from sin. If it was sin, then that means God sins, Genesis 6:6.
Preacher Robert Hulewicz
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 20, 2006 18:44:38 GMT -5
av, Please understand as I agree with you about this statement "Bible hermeneutics, is the science of interpreting Scripture in it's historical and textual context that at the same time I believe allowing the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit to bring the interpretation or revelation is as important but much more so.
Secondly: By your own words you speak of condition to your security. "Firstly, you need to realize you have a POSITION in Christ, and a RELATIONSHIP with Christ. Your POSITION in Christ is when you accept him as your personal Saviour...your forever eternally secured, washed in the blood of the Lamb. Your RELATIONSHIP however, depends on your walk with God and your obedience to His commands. Your POSITION never changes, yet depending on you, your RELATIONSHIP does."
I submit to you that your position changes when your relationship changes. It is impossible for one to change and not the other. Use the example of the vine and branches that Jesus spoke of. As a branch, my relationship to the vine directly effects my position as a branch to the vine. Jesus says:
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." Who is it that does the abiding or remaining? God or man? Jesus doesn't say if you don't abide, I won't let you go. That would be contrary to Jesus' story of the Prodigal Son where God let the son go. Free will. He wants us to chose, to abide and on the condition we don't then we are thrown into the fire (hell). Not an easy message but a true one spoken by the Son of God.
It's the same as your marriage to your wife. On the condition that you walk away from her for another woman and divorce her your relationship AND your position BOTH change in regard to your wife. And that's the way it is with us, on the condition that we turn from Jesus and enter into a life of sinning we then are serving another master.(Romans 8:12-13) Jesus wouldn't and couldn't be there. There can only be ONE on the throne of our hearts.
Thirdly: You said: "How do you produce fruit? By merely "accepting Christ"? No, by walking with Him (relationship) you bear fruit." Who does the walking you or God? and on the condition that you are no longer walking then you're no longer bearing fruit and "he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned"(Hell). You are speaking of condition av based on a person's action which is so very clear in scripture to begin with. Free will.
Fourthly: You asked "You are no sinner? So your perfect after your salvation? Is that what you are claiming?" Am I perfect, only as I am in Christ. Am I a sinner? No! There is definite difference in scripture between the two. For example...
"Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints; That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed." (Romans 15:30-32)
or "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (Luke 15:7)
You said: "Funny that, Paul wasn't perfect after his salvation, in actual fact he claimed to be the chief of sinners! So I guess Paul lost his salvation didn't he..." Paul was speaking of himself before conversion. Read Romans 7:5, then read Paul's commentary to this at Romans 7:7-25 of the same chapter. Then read Romans 7:6 and the Paul's commentary to that at Romans 8:1-11. Paul is speaking of two very distinct times of life, seperate from each other. That's proven in science, that two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. You are either a sinner or a saint but not both. Saying you are contradicts the truth of scripture. And if that weren't true then why are both mentioned in the Bible, but both are headed in different directions, one to heaven and the other to hell?
and then Fifthly: You said: "Much education? Mate, read your Bible! 6 year old Filipino boys in my church whose second language is English know this doctrine! It is a fundamental of the faith...Look at Acts 8:37 in your Bible (quote it for us), good verse to show eternal security." It says: "[And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] " (NASB) So off of this verse what do your 6 year old Filipino boys know as doctrine?
Just so you know av, I study using NIV, NASB and KJV and sometimes ASV or ESV. I also use Strong's. I don't use commentaries but only once in a great while, because I know man can be deceived.
God Bless
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Post by biblethumper on May 20, 2006 19:29:11 GMT -5
Darc Said: I don't use commentaries but only once in a great while, because I know man can be deceived
Response: Are YOU deceived in teaching this heresy? (not arminianism, but Cornerism)
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 20, 2006 19:29:30 GMT -5
What does the Word of God say about repentance?
"Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" Ezekiel 18:31-32(NIV)
"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." Ezekiel 18:31-32 (KJV)
"Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures." Job 36:9-11 Clearly God commanding a turning away from theirs sins.
"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways." Revelation 2:20-22 Clearly a turning away from her sin, her actions.
"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done." Revelation 16:10-11 Clearly a turning from sin is what is meant by repentance. Yes it is changing the mind and it is also changing your behavior, turning from the sinful behavior.
C-1 Noun Strong's Number: 3341 Greek: metanoia "afterthought, change of mind, repentance," corresponds in meaning to A, No. 1, and is used of "repentance" from sin or evil, except in Hbr 12:17, where the word "repentance" seems to mean, not simply a change of Isaac's mind, but such a change as would reverse the effects of his own previous state of mind. Esau's birthright-bargain could not be recalled; it involved an irretrievable loss. As regards "repentance" from sin, (a) the requirement by God on man's part is set forth, e.g., in Mat 3:8; Luk 3:8; Act 20:21; 26:20; (b) the mercy of God in giving "repentance" or leading men to it is set forth, e.g., in Act 5:31; 11:18; Rom 2:4; 2Ti 2:25. The most authentic mss. omit the word in Mat 9:13; Mar 2:17, as in the RV. Note: In the OT, "repentance" with reference to sin is not so prominent as that change of mind or purpose, out of pity for those who have been affected by one's action, or in whom the results of the action have not fulfilled expectations, a "repentance" attributed both to God and to man, e.g., Gen 6:6; Exd 32:14 (that this does not imply anything contrary to God's immutability, but that the aspect of His mind is changed toward an object that has itself changed, see under RECONCILE). In the NT the subject chiefly has reference to "repentance" from sin, and this change of mind involves both a turning from sin and a turning to God. The parable of the Prodigal Son is an outstanding illustration of this. Christ began His ministry with a call to "repentance," Mat 4:17, but the call is addressed, not as in the OT to the nation, but to the individual. In the Gospel of John, as distinct from the Synoptic Gospels, referred to above, "repentance" is not mentioned, even in connection with John the Baptist's preaching; in John's Gospel and 1st Epistle the effects are stressed, e.g., in the new birth, and, generally, in the active turning from sin to God by the exercise of faith ( Jhn 3:3; 9:38; 1Jo 1:9), as in the NT in general.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 20, 2006 19:32:34 GMT -5
Darc Said: I don't use commentaries but only once in a great while, because I know man can be deceived Response: Are YOU deceived in teaching this heresy? (not arminianism, but Cornerism) I don't teach any "isms" just searching scripture for truth and guidance from God, my Father so as to be used of Him in reasoning with others to bring about the fullness of the Truth of the Word....and you?
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Post by biblethumper on May 20, 2006 20:21:17 GMT -5
Darc, you are NOT presenting the true doctrine of Arminianism or Conditional Security.
You are preaching a perverted doctrine which borders on blasphemy
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Post by evanschaible on May 21, 2006 9:09:23 GMT -5
DARC,
Are you not human and subjected to the same fallen nature as we are? Can you be decieved?
Repentance is only a change of mind, by defining it solely in the context of sin then you imply God has sinned because He repented (CHANGED HIS MIND). The definition of the word did not change with the covenants, the context changed. repentance is only a sorrow and change of mind.
When we command men to repent it is in the context of sin, turn from all your SIN. Please let us be reasonable. DARC no matter how much you think you do, you dont have every iota of truth, no one does, save God.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 21, 2006 12:59:30 GMT -5
Darc, you are NOT presenting the true doctrine of Arminianism or Conditional Security. You are preaching a perverted doctrine which borders on blasphemy If by presenting the Word and it's truth is "NOT presenting the true doctrine of Arminianism or Conditional Security," then so be it. I don't know how one who is a "moderate Calvinist" can make such a call. Why don't you press on and tell us all what Conditional Security is then? It is easy to sit back and do what you do Dan, make flippant comments, off the cuff, just to see what kind of a rise you can get, but why don't you try and search out the truth from the Scriptures and correct me? I know, I know, you say you have but you haven't. To use the side of the argument that you and all OSAS/Eternal Security/Preseverance of the Saints/Calvinists do, which is to proclaim God's goodness and faithfulness is all well and good, but, to wave off the rest of the truth of God's Word as if it doesn't apply is not something I can't understand.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 21, 2006 13:36:47 GMT -5
DARC, Are you not human and subjected to the same fallen nature as we are? Can you be deceived? Repentance is only a change of mind, by defining it solely in the context of sin then you imply God has sinned because He repented (CHANGED HIS MIND). The definition of the word did not change with the covenants, the context changed. repentance is only a sorrow and change of mind. When we command men to repent it is in the context of sin, turn from all your SIN. Please let us be reasonable. DARC no matter how much you think you do, you dont have every iota of truth, no one does, save God. Yes and yes, Evan. As I stated "Yes it is changing the mind and it is also changing your behavior, turning from the sinful behavior." I am not saying it is one or the other, but Scripture clearly says it is both a change of mind and a change in behavior. "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." Acts 20:21 (NIV) a change of mind "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20 (KJV) a change of behavior, turning away from sin My friend when you say "DARC no matter how much you think you do, you dont have every iota of truth, no one does, save God.", I agree whole-heartedly. I never have said or thought that I did. All I am doing is giving out the revelation I am given and far be it from me to even think that I have all that you think I do. I come to a place of humbleness every time I come to this MB and pray God would enlighten me and also show me His truth.
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on May 21, 2006 15:23:01 GMT -5
AV said on May 15, 2006: "I take the position "once saved always saved". "There is no doubt that the Bible teaches that...True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because:
1)They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23). This is speaking of the seed, the Word. It is emphasizing that the Christ is incorruptible, that the Word is pure. Because we are born again of a pure Word speaks to God's purity and holiness (part of his attributes and character) but says nothing of us being eternally secure.
2)They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21). We are given the gift of eternal life by God through Jesus. Paul who wrote these scriptures also wrote 1 Cor. 15:2, "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." which states the conditional word IF. Implying that if we don't "keep in memory what I preached unto you" we will then have believed in vain "to no end." Not false converts either, for he is clearly speaking to Christians.
3)His sheep have been given eternal life—they shall never perish (John 10:28). Jesus also said Who it was that He gave eternal life (not eternal security) to and that was "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. these are present tense, as in continually listening and following
4) Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3). This is truth and so is what Paul wrote in Galatians 6:8,9: that to reap eternal life and not destruction we must sow to please the Spirit and not the sinful nature. Not legalism but true grace.
5) They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6). The reason why we at the present time experience the heavenlies is because of what God wrote in verses 1 & 2 of Chapter 2. "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" We have peace now because of what Jesus has done. I don't see where this ties in to "eternal security" though.
6) The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9). This true for all our sins if (on the condition that) we confess them. (1 John 1:9) This makes it clear that our future sins are not covered but have to be confessed at the time after the sin occurs in order to be put under the blood. So if there is a condition to this, then this can certainly not mean we are eternally secure. Any unconfessed sin is not forgiven.
7) Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (l Corinthians 3:10-15). careless means: free from care or without care. I don't believe that is what is mentioned here, rather it is ignorance mentioned here. Someone truly without knowledge that they have sinned or done wrong. God is forgiving of someone who doesn't know they've done wrong, but for someone who sins "without care" there would be no forgiveness.
8) God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32). I don't understand what you mean. What are you saying these scriptures say? Are you saying that God would kill a "Christian" who was immoral in some way because they refuse His correction? In other words, a sexually immoral person who had a past moment of faith could be allowed into God's kingdom, is this what you're saying?
9) They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10). This is a beautiful truth, as long as we endure to the end as Jesus said:"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7 and this truth, of our need to endure to the end to receive God's eternal reward, is mentioned many many times throughout scripture.
10 )They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23). Can being sealed unto the day redemption be an absolute guarantee of entering the kingdom of God in light of the Prodigal Son, Demas or Judas and others who were onced saved?
11) The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23). This is true, but how does this emphasize what you say, that someone is eternally secure? He knows those that are His by what they are doing, not by some past moment of faith. (1 John 3:7-10) "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
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