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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 12, 2008 2:26:30 GMT -5
VCU is a great campus for outreach. And they certainly need some hellfire preaching. Keep up the great work brother!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 12, 2008 1:33:41 GMT -5
Right, election and predestination are biblical words.
Predestination = God predetermined to offer salvation to the Jews and the Gentiles. Election = God chooses to save those who repent and believe.
I am surprised that these words have caused so many problems, and people have even gotten into the errors of Calvinism over these words.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 11, 2008 21:31:34 GMT -5
This is a response I made on my Youtube page to some posts that were made in the comment section:
1. If sin is a choice, it is avoidable. If sin is avoidable, you can go a day without sinning. You can choose to obey God instead of choose to disobey God. And if sin is a choice, you cannot inherit sin, because you cannot inherit a choice. A choice is not a “thing” or some type of “stuff” that can be transmitted through semen.
2. If you had to disobey God every day, you could not be accountable or punished for it. If you did not have the power to avoid sin, you could not be responsible for sinning. You cannot be justly held accountable and eternally punished, if sin was unavoidable. That would be cruelty and tyranny, it would be injustice. Sinners deserve to burn in hell forever, because they have chosen to sin when they didn’t have to. That is why they need forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
3. The flesh can only influence us towards self-gratification (sin) but it cannot force us to sin. The flesh is temptation, not sin. Jesus had the same flesh and blood we have Hebrews says. We are to crucify our flesh, to mortify the deeds of the body, to present our bodies a living sacrifice, to use our members as instruments of righteousness.
4. The thorn in Paul’s flesh was persecution, not sin. Paul said that he always exercised himself to have a conscience void of offense before God and man. Paul said we are to follow him as he followed Christ.
5. The flesh cannot be perfect until glorification. But this is physical perfection, not moral perfection. We have fallen bodies, not sinful bodies. There is a different between physical depravity and moral depravity. But the Gnostic heretics failed to distinguish between the two. We can be sanctified in this life (moral perfection) but we cannot be glorified in this life (physical perfection).
6. If perfection was impossible, striving for perfection would be useless. It would be a waste of time. What is the point of striving to jump to the moon if it is impossible? All it would be is a waste of energy. Jesus tells us to be perfect because perfection is possible. He was not wasting his breathe.
7. If we claim to have never sinned, we are a liar. But 1Jn 1:8 is talking about the man who has not yet been cleansed from all his sin by the blood of Jesus Christ, which occurs in verse 9. But 1 Jn 2 tells us that if we claim to know God, but do not keep His commandments, we are a liar and the truth is not in us. A true Christian keeps God’s commandments.
8. At conversion, we are forgiven of all our past sins. But God gives us no license for present or future sins. If we sin, we must repent and ask for forgiveness. There is never forgiveness of sin without forsaking sin. Besides, you cannot be forgiven of what you are not guilty, and you cannot be guilty of what you have not done. You cannot be forgiven of sins in advance. The future doesn't exist yet, you are not guilty yet. God pardons all repentant sin, that is it.
9. God not only gives us forgiveness of sin, but also freedom from sin. So we are not only forgiven of what we have done, but we are free to do it no more.
10. If you sin daily, your heart has never been converted. Sin is a deliberate choice to disobey God. If you are choosing to rebel against God every day, you have never been saved. You are practicing sin, you are living a lifestyle of sinning. You need to die daily, pick up your cross daily, and stop sinning daily. There is not a single sin that you cannot stop doing. We are tempted daily, but we never have to sin.
11. You are making an excuse for sin if you are saying that perfection is impossible. If obeying God’s law is impossible, we have an excuse for disobedience.
12. The Bible tells us that some men were “perfect in heart” that they kept God’s commandments “blamelessly” etc. There have been perfect men, men who choose to obey God daily instead of disobey God daily. There is a difference between sinners and saints. Sinners disobey God, saints obey God.
13. “All have sinned” is not without qualification. Obviously Jesus never sinned. This verse is also limited to all those who are capable of sinning. Naturally, only those who are capable of sinning can be included in “all have sinned”. Just as this verse does not include Jesus, neither does it include babies. Romans 9:11 says infants have not yet sinned. That is because they are not capable of sinning until the age of accountability, when they know right from wrong. Therefore, all who are capable of sinning have sinned. But infant babies have not sinned, since sin is a deliberate choice, and babies have not made any knowledgeable choices.
14. If God is really "displeased" with our sinning, He would give us the ability not to sin, since it is in His power to give us this ability. And that is precisely what He did. Because God wants us to obey Him, He gave us the ability to obey Him. Because God doesn't want us to sin, He has given us the ability to not sin. If God did not give us the ability to obey Him, but gave us a nature whereas disobedience was unavoidable, we would have to conclude that God wants us to sin and disobey Him instead of obey Him and not sin.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 11, 2008 20:48:46 GMT -5
Here is a good quote on the issue:
"If man is in fault for his sinful nature, why not condemn man for having blue or black eyes? The fact is, sin never can consist in having a nature, nor in what nature is; but only and alone in the bad use which we make of our nature. This is all. Our Maker will never find fault with us for what He has Himself done or made; certainly not. He will not condemn us, if we will only make a right use of our powers - of our intellect, our sensibility, our will. He never holds us responsible for our original nature. If you will observe, you will find that God has given no law prescribing what sort of nature and constitutional powers we should have. He has given no law on these points, the transgression of which, if given, might somewhat resemble the definition of sin. But now since there is no law about nature, nature cannot be a transgression.... man's nature is not a proper subject for legislation, precept, and penalty, inasmuch as it lies entirely without the pale of voluntary action, or of any action of man at all.." Charles G. Finney (Sermons on Gospel Themes, pg 78-79, published by Truth in Heart)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 11, 2008 16:06:41 GMT -5
Paul here is talking about the unconverted, the unsaved. Because those who are converted, those who are saved, know the way of peace and they have the fear of God. I used to be without the fear of God, not knowing the way of peace, when I was unsaved and unconverted. But now I am not that way, now I have the fear of God, now I know the way of peace, since I am saved and converted. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, by the fear of the Lord men depart from iniquity, and Jesus Christ is the way of peace.
So even this verse is not talking about every single individual, it is simply talking about the condition of the unsaved, of the unconverted. That is why Paul says "they" and "their" instead of "us" and "we". Because Paul knew the way of peace, Paul had the fear of God. The general characteristic of Jews and Gentiles was what Paul described, and that was the condition of all men before conversion/salvation.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 10, 2008 23:07:36 GMT -5
Some of the major leaders in the Early Church were converted philosophers who seemed to continue to hold to Plato's view of "Eternal Now". This affected their understanding of foreknowledge. So many of the quotes I have found on the issue are in favor of "eternal now", that God lives without succession, or more specifically that He lives in the past, present, and future all at once. But it seems clear to me that they learned this understanding from Plato and not from the Apostles. That is just my conclusion from my studies.
But ALL of the Early Church leaders taught free will. And the very definition of a "free" will is that certain decisions "may or may not" occur. And that is precisely what the open view says, that because there is free will, moral decisions have alternative possibilities, there is a "may or may not" element in reality.
To say that the future is certain (because of foreknowledge) and to say that the future is contingent (because of free will) is a contradiction. A certain event will happen, a contingent event may or may not happen. The same event cannot be both contingent and certain. You cannot say that an event will happen and that it may or may not happen.
So the concept of an open system is found in the Early Church at least in "seed" form, because of their understanding of free will over against the concept of fate, destiny, etc.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 10, 2008 19:29:35 GMT -5
I have always used the radio shack bullhorn. It works very good. It is great especially for street preaching because you have to compete with the music of bars/clubs and the noise from the streets.
I love your avatar by the way. It's awesome.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 10, 2008 17:08:04 GMT -5
There is no reason why a person cannot stop sinning. For those who might be reading this thread and you think to yourself "it is impossible to stop sinning", let me ask you why? Why is it impossible to stop sinning?
Does the devil make you do it? Does the flesh make you do it? Did God take away our free will? Is sin an involuntary stuff inside of you? Did God give us an impossible law? Why would it be impossible to stop sinning?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 9, 2008 20:22:29 GMT -5
My understanding is that Solomon was speaking of his own generation, not of all generations. He was speaking of his own time. But he certainly could not have been speaking about all times, because the Bible says "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations" (Gen. 6:9). It also says that Joseph was a "just man" (Mat. 1:19). There was also "a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just" (Luke 23:50).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 9, 2008 18:46:45 GMT -5
I am very glad that everyone has voted in favor of the possibility of not sinning.
If we HAD to sin by NECESSITY, we would have an excuse, we would have some type of justification for disobedience.
But if we don't HAVE to sin, if sin is an abuse of our LIBERTY, then we have absolutely no excuse for sinning, we have absolutely no justification for it.
The reason we deserve hell forever, and the reason that we absolutely need Jesus Christ, is because we have chosen to sin when we didn't have to.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 9, 2008 8:44:36 GMT -5
Yes. Like Tozer said, "what a man ought to do, he can do". Obligation implies ability.
And just think of what the commandments are. We are to love God "with all thy" and to love our neighbor "as yourself". The moral obligation presented by these commandments is perfectly matched by our ability, that is why it says "with all thy" and "as yourself". The measure of your ability is the measure of your obligation.
It makes no sense for God to waste his breathe by saying "go and sin no more" or "keep my commandments" if it was impossible. It makes no sense for Paul to say "stop sinning" if this was not possible.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 8, 2008 22:28:11 GMT -5
What do you think? What does the Bible say?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 7, 2008 20:32:52 GMT -5
Trinity = tri-unity.
There is a plurality of personalities. There is a oneness of essence and purpose.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are united. These three are one.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 7, 2008 20:04:46 GMT -5
Maybe we can play the audio recording of his call sometime during the next show so that we could answer his question.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 7, 2008 19:45:01 GMT -5
John, Kerrigan, and I just completed our first radio show "Refining Fire". You can listen to the show online or download it here: www.blogtalkradio.com/RefiningFireRadioWe introduced the purpose and object of the show, started some of the segments, and even took some callers. Let us know what you guys think about the show.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 7, 2008 17:18:17 GMT -5
Yea I don't know what happened. I got cut off right when Dustin finished the question. I was looking at the context of the verse and it seems to be talking about the destruction of the sanctuary (vs 18). In other words, God raised up their enemies and destroyed their sanctuary, and in this way did God remove His ways from them.
Remember also Isaiah 66:3 which says "they have chosen their own ways".
And don't forget Isaiah 4:4 where God says He could not do anything more to His vineyard, that when He looked for grapes, they brought forth wild grapes instead.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 7, 2008 0:59:44 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 6, 2008 8:32:18 GMT -5
Here is the way I see it:
- If sinners need Jesus, sinners deserve hell - If sinners deserve hell, their sin must be their own fault - If their sin is their own fault, it must be their own choice - If their sin is their own fault/choice, it cannot be because of their involuntary birth
Sinners deserve hell and consequently need Jesus, not for their birth, but for their choices.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 5, 2008 22:43:54 GMT -5
I think that the greatest problem is that Calvinists will often classify the body as a sin. That is why they don't believe in moral perfection until glorification. Since the body is sinful, you cannot be sin free until you get a new body, etc. That is also why they think we are born sinners. And that is why they think we sin every day. They often classify temptation as sin, particularly the involuntary feelings and desires of the body.
But if we understand that your body is not a sin, that you do not inherit some "original sin" stuff that is even inside of Christians, but that sin is a deliberate choice, then you can understand how Christians do not sin every day. You are not a sinner because of the body you have. You are not sinful because of the body you have.
The body can have involuntary temptations. But sin is a deliberate choice of the heart. And anyone whose heart is in deliberate disobedience towards God, every day, is certainly not a Christian.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 5, 2008 20:42:48 GMT -5
I suppose it is possible that many Calvinists sometimes have a "weaker conscience" like Paul talked about. For example, some thought in Paul's day that it was a sin to eat certain types of meat. Paul said it was not a sin. But since their conscience is weak, they should not eat. Their conscience was weak. But Paul said that the one who's conscience was not "weak" as actually walking in "liberty". Therefore those who have a "weak conscience" are actually in bondage.
Honestly, that is like this case of Calvinists being stricter than God. Their catechism seems like just more bondage to me. They make sin out to be something that cannot be conquered, something Jesus cannot save you from in this life. That means that Jesus is not really our Savior. It essentially adds up to a total denial of this passage "he shall save his people from their sins" (Mk. 1:21). You should never make sin stronger than Jesus. Jesus Christ can free us from all sin. But to think that you have to sin every day, that you cannot be perfect, is just bondage that results in continual guilt and condemnation.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 5, 2008 16:44:48 GMT -5
Hello,
You are asking some great questions. I hope I can cover everything you brought up.
1. Yes I focus a lot on man's free will, but I do also focus a lot on Christ's death. In fact, it is very hard to understand one without the other. The reason that Christ died was not because we couldn't obey God but because we didn't obey God. We need the blood atonement of Christ, not for being born disabled cripples (morally) but for choosing to be deliberate criminals. In order for a sinner to understand the atonement, they need to understand accountability. And in order to understand accountability, they must understand free will. Preaching man's free will lays the foundation for a proper understanding of the atonement.
2. Yes, salvation is a change of the moral character of man. Man's moral character is his heart. Therefore, salvation is a change of heart, it is a change of moral character. I do not make any distinction between regeneration and conversion. They are the same thing. Being born again, and repenting and believing, are the same thing. A person is born again when they repent and believe. A person is regenerated when they repent and believe. A person is converted when they repent and believe. This is the beginning of a holy life.
3. Yes, anyone who sins every day in word, thought, or deed is going to hell. If a person is disobeying God, on a daily basis, their heart is not right with God. Their heart is not regenerated, their heart is not converted, their moral character is not changed. They are in deliberate rebellion against God and therefore are under His wrath.
4. God does give us the power to overcome sin, and this power includes the power of free will. At creation, God gave us the gift of free will. But God also gives us the gift of revelation which includes the law, the gospel, and the gracious influence of the Holy Spirit. The moral influence of the Holy Spirit is to make man willing to do what man is already capable of doing.
5. You do not have to have sin in your life in order to overcome sin daily. But you do have to have temptation. Every day that you are tempted to sin, but you choose not to, you are overcoming sin daily. You do not have to disobey God every day to have victory over sin, but you do have to have temptation in your life. Victory over sin is when you choose not to obey temptation, but rather choose to obey the moral influence of the Holy Spirit.
I hope that helps.
God Bless
Jesse
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 5, 2008 16:28:31 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 5, 2008 15:58:26 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 4, 2008 20:30:19 GMT -5
Paul,
Go to "My account", then click "video playback quality" in the account section. Then you can set HQ as your default.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 4, 2008 16:48:13 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 4, 2008 16:19:11 GMT -5
It is talking about both. It says that nobody, converted or unconverted, can keep the commandments of God for even a single day.
"No man is able, either of himself, or by any grace received in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God, but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed" Larger Catechism
If both Christians and non-Christians break the commandments of God every single day, what is the difference between Christians and non-Christians?
And if it were not possible to obey God, why does the Bible say "be perfect" "be holy" "keep my commandments" "sin not" "sin no more" etc? Is God wasting His breath?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 4, 2008 9:17:31 GMT -5
"And when the women saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and did eat.." Gen. 3:6
Her flesh was a source of temptation. She has NATURAL DESIRES for food, pleasantness, and wisdom. These are good desires that God gave her. But the devil tempted her to use these natural-good-desires for evil. The devil tempted her to fulfill or gratify her natural desires in a forbidden way.
The same goes for us today. The devil tempts us to gratify our natural, God given desires in an unlawful manner.
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This is from an outline I wrote:
2. God has given us natural desires that can be gratified lawfully or unlawfully (Gen. 3:6).
"When God made us He gave us many different appetites... But God looked at the being He made and to whom He had given all these appetites and urges and said, 'It is good!” Paris Reidhead (Finding the Reality of God, pg 141)
-----A. We have a natural desire for food (Gen. 2:16).
-----B. We have a natural desire for sexual relations (Gen. 1:28; 2:24).
-----C. We have a natural desire for well-being (Gen. 2:18).
-----D. The natural desire God has created us with are good, not evil (Gen. 1:31).
3. Sin is when the will of man seeks to gratify a natural desire in an unlawful manner (Gen. 3:6).
-----A. Our natural desire for food can be used for gluttony.
-----B. Our natural desire for sexual relations can be used for fornication, adultery, or homosexuality.
-----C. Our natural desire for well-being can lead to selfishness and greed.
“Now temptation is not sin. Temptation is the proposition presented to the mind that you can satisfy a good appetite in a forbidden way. Temptation leads to sin…. Sin is the decision of the will…. sin is the decision to gratify a good appetite in a bad way." Paris Reidhead (Finding the Reality of God, pg 141-142)
“Don’t mistake temptation for sin. Temptation is a suggestion to gratify a desire in an illegal way or amount. Temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted.” Winkie Pratney (Youth Aflame, Bethany House, pg. 83).
“The bodily appetites and tendencies of body and mind, when strongly excited, become the occasions of sin. So it was with Adam. No one will say that Adam had a sinful nature. But he had, by his constitution, an appetite for food and a desire for knowledge. These were not sinful but were as God made them. They were necessary to fit him to live in this world as a subject of God’s moral government. But being strongly excited led to indulgence, and thus became the occasions of his sinning against God. These tendencies were innocent in themselves, but he yielded to them in a sinful manner, and that was his sin.” Charles Finney (You Can Be Holy, published by Whitaker House, p. 215).
"We have a nature that is capable of being perverted from legitimate to illegitimate, from the natural to the unnatural, from the pure to the polluted." Sin is to "pervert... natural, legitimate, human desires." F. Lagard Smith (Troubling Questions for Calvinists, page 134-135).
"Evil is making a bad use of a good thing." Augustine (Confessions and Enchiridion, trans. and ed. by Albert C. Outler, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, N. D, page 326-338, section 36).
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5. The occasion of sin and the cause of sin must be distinguished.
-----A. The occasion of sin (temptation) is the lust of the flesh (Gen. 3:6; Rom. 7:5, 23; Gal. 4:14; Jas. 1:14-15).
-----------(1.) The lusts of the flesh are an influence, not causation (1 Cor. 10:13).
“If these feelings are not suffered to influence the will… if such feelings are not cherished, and are not suffered to shake the integrity of the will; they are not sin. That is, the will does not consent to them, but the contrary. They are only temptations. If they are allowed to control the will, to break forth in words and actions, then there is sin; but the sin does not consist in the feelings, but in the consent of the will, to gratify them.” Charles Finney (Systematic Theology pg. 191).
-----B. The cause of sin is the decision or choice of the heart or will (Isa. 14:13-14; Rom. 6:12).
-----------(1.) Men make themselves sinners (Gen. 6:12; Exo. 32:7; Deut. 9:12; 32:5; 1 Sam. 3:13; Jdg. 2:19; Isa. 66:3; Hos. 9:9; Ps. 14:2-3; Isa. 53:6; Ecc. 7:29; Zep. 3:7; Matt. 12:34-35; 15:17-20; Mk. 7:15, 21-22; Lk. 6:45; Rom. 3:23).
-----------(2.) Men originate their sin in their own hearts (Ecc. 7:29; Matt. 12:34-35; 15:17-20; Mk. 7:15, 21-22; Lk. 6:45).
“… all men must look to themselves as the cause of their sin.” Gordon Olson (The Entrance of Sin into the World, pg 10).
“It is the very essence of moral government that man is the sole author of his own actions.” Gordon Olson (The Moral Government of God, pg. 15)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 3, 2008 23:21:34 GMT -5
Frank,
I am very pleased that you can see the validity of my understanding of that passage. I guess I ran the risk of giving a proof text without explaining in detail the context of the passage.
I am not very familiar with the extra-biblical Jewish tradition. I don't know much about Manasseh at all, except from what I read in the scriptures.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 3, 2008 21:05:43 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Sept 3, 2008 20:01:11 GMT -5
WESTMINSTER SAYS:
"No man is able, either of himself, or by any grace received in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God, but doth daily break them in thought, word, and deed" Larger Catechism
BIBLE SAYS:
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things become new." 2 Cor. 5:17
"And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense towards God and toward men." Acts 14:16
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." 1 Jn. 2:3
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor. 10:13
"And he said to them all, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Lk. 9:23
"I die daily" 1 Cor. 15:31
The Westminster says, "no man is able" but the Word of God says, "ye are able". Who is right?
The Westminster says, that you have to daily break the law. The Bible says that you must daily pick up your cross and die daily. Again, who is right?
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