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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 10:04:25 GMT -5
That is probably what you have been taught but it is not completely accurate.
Jonah's prophecy did not come to pass because the people repented. Jonah did not say Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days unless you repent. He just said Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days. He gave a time frame. It did not happen. People took it seriously. He gave them no way out. People are more likely to take a prophecy of judgment seriously if they think their is no way out. If their is a way out they tend to become complacent.
According to the standard you are using, Jonah was a false prophet, because what he prophesied did not come to pass.
It is possible that Joel's prophecy would not come to pass if the people repented (Joel 2:14).
Have you read Jeremiah 18:7-10? I have asked you to read this before. I want to hear your input on it. How do you think God was going to speak unto a nation? Through the prophet (Amos 3:7).
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 7:19:27 GMT -5
Josh,
I do not think David Wilkerson is a false prophet. I used to always read his newsletters and they were very challenging, full of conviction, and a blessing.
I am not judging your heart because I think your motives are pure, but I think you need to be careful. The reason I say this is because David Wilkerson has some influence in this country. Many godly people receive his newsletters. When all these people here about these impending judgments on America they humble themselves and cry out to God for mercy. Again, much of the purpose of a prophetic word is for people to take it seriously, humble themselves, repent, so they can be spared. Sometimes this is possible sometimes it is not possible. Joel said "Who knows if the Lord will repent and leave a blessing?" We don't know, but we need to take the warning seriously and go into prayer and repentance. 2 Chronicles 7:14.
Very often 2 Chronicles 7:14 only happens after a word of impending judgment on a nation.
Alot of those things you posted have not happened yet, but I could see them happening in the future.
When God's people repent sometimes it delays the judgment, sometimes it lessens the amount of judgment, and sometimes it is too late.
Please read Jeremiah 18 and Deuteronomy 13.
In Deuteronomy 13 it tells us a false prophet will tell us to follow false gods. That is not David Wilkerson.
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Post by messengermicah on May 13, 2006 11:58:17 GMT -5
Some of the prophet's prophecies in the bible did not come to pass either, because the people took the warning seriously and repented. Very often, that is the purpose of a prophetic word.
You cannot always judge whether someone is a true prophet or a false prophet by whether or not what they say happens. Read Jeremiah 18 and Deuteronomy 13.
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Tongues
May 24, 2006 14:22:38 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 24, 2006 14:22:38 GMT -5
Doc H,
I have admitted I never addressed the verse about tongues being a sign for the unbelievers. I don't see what the big deal is but I could give a more detailed explanation if necessary. I am VERY busy right now as I am finishing out the academic school year, grading papers, etc, plus we have guests in our house staying with us to help us preach at a huge event this weekend, plus the ongoing ordeal with my trial when I got arrested for preaching back in March.
The video you saw was not one I posted or videotaped. A photojournalist who is not a Christian always used to follow us around and take pictures of us. He is the one who filmed that and posted it.
I have much footage of myself preaching that my wife films but it is mainly for legal purposes in case I get in trouble.
I do not know how much experience you have preaching on the street Doc H, especially in rowdy, sinful environments but it is not like you always get a nice orderly crowd to stand around and listen to you expound the scriptures for hours. Usually when people got healed under Jesus ministry they came to hear and be healed. We have a tremendous challenge to get people interested in what we are saying. People come and go, listen for periods of time and then move on usually.
I do not preach with an emphasis on healing (in other words my focus is not for people to get healed). I do pray for sick people though, and the other night I was witnessing to a woman and I told her to repent and confess her sins and a demon manifested. This confirms Mark 16.
I have seen and experienced many of the gifts of the spirit in operation in my life. It was much easier when I was doing prison ministry since we had a captive (pun intended audience) because people came to sit and listen for long periods of time.
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Tongues
May 23, 2006 10:24:34 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 23, 2006 10:24:34 GMT -5
Amen Josh Williamson and good point. I wonder if av1611 thinks Spurgeon was demonic since he believes all knowledge has ceased.
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Tongues
May 23, 2006 10:14:14 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 23, 2006 10:14:14 GMT -5
Doc H,
I did answer that question in a previous post the first time you asked me but I guess you never read it. I will post an answer again when I get a chance. Yes there is a simple answer for the question above.
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Tongues
May 22, 2006 22:28:25 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 22:28:25 GMT -5
Go back and read the thread. 1 Corinthians 14 is loaded with verses on tongues. That is the only verse that is convenient for you.
I assume you are unable to prove your point about the gifts ceasing.
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Tongues
May 22, 2006 22:09:32 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 22:09:32 GMT -5
Yes, we have answered everything else though, and you refuse to deal with the many other scriptures that talk about tongues. You still have failed to scripturally prove how the gifts have ceased. Put up or shut up.
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Tongues
May 17, 2006 19:42:17 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 17, 2006 19:42:17 GMT -5
Doc H,
You have proven nothing at all from the scriptures that gifts of the Spirit are not for today. Nor from history. You have proved you do not know much about church history.
I think you are the one who is confused. You say you do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit but then turn around and say that all Christians have them. All Christians could and should operate in them, but if unbelief kept Jesus from being able to operate in them then it will do the same today.
Please explain to me how I contradicted myself by saying that God can mightily use men who do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit.
Why would I ever say that God can mightily use men who do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit and then turn around and say you are not saved because you do not believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today? You are making insinuations. For someone who harps on the necessity of fruit of the Spirit your posts do not reflect much of it when you compete with others to prove something to them, or make insinuations that you have no proof for about others.
Many cessationalists lump all gifts together. Here is the way I understand it: Romans 12 is a list of service gifts or motivational gifts. 1 Corinthians 12 is a list of spiritual gifts (or what you are calling the sign gifts). Ephesians 4 is a list of ministry gifts.
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Tongues
May 17, 2006 14:05:10 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 17, 2006 14:05:10 GMT -5
Robert Hulewicz,
Just stating something does not make it so. Just because you or anyone else says something does not make it so.
You and others repeatedly assert that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased according to the bible and history but are unable to prove your assertion.
The example someone gave above about 1 Corinthians 13:8 was ridiculous. It did not prove a thing.
Prove from the Bible and history the gifts are not for today. I assert they are for today. Whether I experience them at all, never, to some degree, as much as Jesus does not make a difference if the bible says they are for today.
I say again you are the ones making your experience the final authority. You have no personal experience with the gifts of the Holy Spirit so you make excuses and say it is not for today.
Maybe, just possibly there is more of God to experience than you or I have experienced. You know the bible is to be more than just a doctrinal manual. It is supposed to be a living experience.
I used to make all sorts of excuses for not walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Do you know why? Because I had no experience with them. As I studied however, the Lord revealed to me they were just as much for today as in the early church. Faith comes by hearing. Faith in the Word brought about the experience of the gifts of the Holy Spirit into my life. I repented of my pride and unbelief.
Even Jesus could not do miracles or perform healing when people did not believe. If Jesus had that experience what do you expect from someone today who does not believe?
Do you believe in casting out devils? Jesus called His own disciples wicked and perverse because they could not cast a devil out of a boy (Matthew 17).
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Tongues
May 16, 2006 23:27:41 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 16, 2006 23:27:41 GMT -5
I have had many experiences like the one you listed about Agabus above. The one with Paul knowing the damsel's message to be false is also an experience I can relate to. I hope you know who Jesus really is. Your interpretation is incorrect.
I supernaturally knew I was supposed to marry my wife. I did not read that in any chapter and verse. God's mind and will was revealed to me. This is a common occurence with me and should be with ALL believers. Very bad example you gave.
I would say the same about you cessationists. There is nothing in the bible that indicates the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. You cessationists are the ones who place your experience above the Word of God. You have no experience with the gifts of the Spirit and so you make excuses and claim they are not for today.
Yes I agree God can mightly use men who do not believe in the sign gifts. I would rather have a genuine revival than all the sign gifts if I had to make a choice. Although the true sign gifts would bring about genuine revival.
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Tongues
May 14, 2006 18:29:21 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 18:29:21 GMT -5
I have read it several times and it is not clear to me at all. Perhaps you proved my logic was flawed, I will give you that, but you never did what biblethumper and myself asked you to do and that was to prove the gifts have ceased by 1 Corinthians 13. How has knowledge ceased?
Biblethumper, did you understand Josh's post to me about explaining 1 Corinthians 13? Am I dense or is it unclear?
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Tongues
May 14, 2006 10:17:16 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 10:17:16 GMT -5
Josh, I agree with you about preaching. The problem is the way you are using 1 Corinthians 13:8 is to say that prophecy has failed. I do not see how you answered my question on knowledge either. Maybe I am dense, but can you explain it to me again and try to make it clear enough that even a Pentecostal can understand it.
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Tongues
May 14, 2006 10:10:59 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 10:10:59 GMT -5
The verse in 1 Corinthians 13:8 to prove that tongues have ceased says that knowledge has vanished. Knowledge has not vanished.
It also says prophecies shall fail. Revelation 19:10 says this is the testimony of Jesus. So I guess we are not supposed to testify about Jesus any more.
Please deal with that scripture. None of the points I have brought up have been addressed by the cessasionalists. They keep reposting the same points and do not deal with the points made.
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Tongues
May 14, 2006 7:01:55 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 7:01:55 GMT -5
Jonathan Hulewicz,
Please deal with this and give some explanation then:
1 Corinthians 13 also predicts that knowledge will cease. Has it? We are told in 2 Peter 3:18 to grow in grace and in the KNOWLEDGE (this is the same word as 1 Corinthians 13 which according to your interpretation has ceased) of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Tongues
May 12, 2006 17:13:23 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 12, 2006 17:13:23 GMT -5
Miles,
I suppose Jesse knows more than I do, but from listening to Ravenhill and reading his books, I received the impression that he did speak in tongues, but did not want it to become a point of contention or division to his real message.
I would also be very surprised after reading several of David Ravenhill's books to hear that he did not speak in tongues either.
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Tongues
May 12, 2006 17:10:39 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 12, 2006 17:10:39 GMT -5
Doc H,
I speak both in the tongues of men and of angels. Whether I speak in tongues of men or angels is as the spirit wills (1 Corinthians 12:11, Hebrews 2 :4). I am merely the vessel.
You are very incorrect on your Pentecostal church history. You have already heard several testimonies on this board about people speaking in another known language. Pentecostal church history is loaded with those who have received the gift of speaking in known languages.
Do you think all those tongue talking beliers in the persecuted church in communist China and other places are deceived?
There are diversities of tongues according to the bible (1 Corinthians 12:28). That means different kinds of tongues.
Paul never condemned speaking in tongues at all. He did condemn wrong use of tongues. I will be the first to agree with you (along with biblethumper, Josh Parsley and others on here who speak in tongues) that there is a lot of flakiness and strange practices in many charismatic churches. So what. There are flaky baptist churches, etc. Come up and shake my hand if you want to go to heaven, etc. I don't judge all non-pentecostals based on what some people do.
I see no distinction that you are making with unknown tongues. In the KJV the word unknown is always italicized which means it was not in the original.
Funny that Paul would condemn something when he also claims when you are doing it (speaking in tongues) you are speaking unto God (1 Corinthians 14:2). So Paul is condemning speaking unto God according to you.
Notice he is saying that you are not speaking unto men but unto God which proves the idea that this is only to speak to others in a known language to be false. Some tongues are definitely not for speaking to other men with but for direct communication with God. He also says that we are speaking mysteries in the spirit and this builds us up spiritually.
I am not saying a person is not saved if they do not speak in tongues because I do not agree with that. Many of the most godly people never spoke in tongues. Wesley, Finney, Brainerd, etc.
I do not make it an issue of primary importance either.
I do not agree with all the flaky things going on in many charismatic churches.
I can testify to many incidents of praying about certain situations and receiving supernatural insight and revelation by praying in tongues.
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Tongues
May 12, 2006 16:51:30 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 12, 2006 16:51:30 GMT -5
Josh Williamson,
I definitely do not believe that 1 Corithians 13:10 is referring to the Word of God. This is how I understand most cessationalists believe this is to be interpreted.
You asked me if I thought it was referring to Christ's second coming. I don't think so, but I do think it refers to heaven.
More importantly, I think Paul is making an illustration about how as we mature, things we used to see as being important are not that important anymore, and that when we are immature we only see a part of the picture but as we grow up we see the whole picture.
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Tongues
May 11, 2006 18:38:15 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 11, 2006 18:38:15 GMT -5
In other words you don't speak in tongues or believe that they are for today.
1 Corinthians 13 also predicts that knowledge will cease. Has it? We are told in 2 Peter 3:18 to grow in grace and in the KNOWLEDGE (this is the same word as 1 Corinthians 13 which according to your interpretation has ceased) of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Jesus.
May 6, 2006 23:17:20 GMT -5
Post by messengermicah on May 6, 2006 23:17:20 GMT -5
First off, Savior from sin. Savior from sin means a Savior from sinning (Matthew 1:21). If a person is not delivered from the power of sin they will not be forgiven of the penalty of sin.
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Post by messengermicah on May 5, 2006 10:00:51 GMT -5
biblethumper,
I am not disputing your point about the passage in Matthew being interpreted as meaning homosexuality, but I disagree that man in sin has never taken marriage seriously.
There are many people who are not Christians (sinful) who have taken their marriages seriously and had successful marriages (from the natural point of view).
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Post by messengermicah on May 7, 2006 10:43:03 GMT -5
Amen Evan. I agree.
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Post by messengermicah on May 5, 2006 10:08:50 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 5:9-11-Wherefore we labor that whether present or absent we may be accepted of Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that everyone may receive the things done in his body according to that which he has done whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men.
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Post by messengermicah on May 5, 2006 10:03:37 GMT -5
Evan,
I agree with your original point, but I think the passage your are talking about is referring to what doctrines people are teaching. Read it again carefully and let me know what you think.
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Post by messengermicah on May 3, 2006 9:40:38 GMT -5
Unbelievers in the doctrine thread. Flies in the ointment of the apothecary. (Ecclesiastes 10:1)
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Post by messengermicah on May 1, 2006 23:02:12 GMT -5
Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit. Proverbs 26:5
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Post by messengermicah on May 2, 2006 22:24:36 GMT -5
That's pretty good Evan. After that post I think should Evan shold get at least one vote for being the biggest bigot.
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Post by messengermicah on May 1, 2006 23:05:47 GMT -5
Yes, Morluna do not go out in public wearing clothes that look like underwear. Save that for your husband in the bedroom on your wedding night.
You heathens don't want to understand what it means to dress modestly so I have to make it simple for you.
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Post by messengermicah on May 1, 2006 14:55:55 GMT -5
Yes it is a bit of a challenge to try to teach people the obvious who refuse to hear. Things like men are supposed to be with women, women are supposed to be with men, the purpose of the male reproductive organ, it is bad to smoke marijuana, it is bad to get drunk, it is wrong to murder babies, don't wear underwear when you go outside, having an orgasm is not the highest attainment in life, etc.
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Post by messengermicah on Apr 26, 2006 0:10:48 GMT -5
God says it's wrong because it is wrong. If it was wrong only because God said it was wrong then it would be possible for God to turn around and say what used to be right is now wrong and what used to be wrong is now right. He would never do this though because since God is good and virtuous He obeys moral law Himself.
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