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Post by messengermicah on Jul 6, 2006 18:20:26 GMT -5
Avery,
Babies have no knowledge of good and evil according to Deuteronomy 1:39 and Isaiah 7:15.
Sin has to be committed against knowledge. It has to be against light. It has to be with intention.
If someone does not know truth because they are resisting truth, that is one thing. If they do not know truth because they don't want to know it, that is sin.
However, people can not be held responsible for something they have no knowledge of or the ability to keep.
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Post by messengermicah on Jul 5, 2006 22:55:51 GMT -5
Avery,
Since you brought up children what do you do with scriptures like Deuteronomy 1:39 and Isaiah 7:15-16. Young children do not have their reasoning ability developed to a point where they can take responsibility for right and wrong behaviors. They respond to discomfort, appetites, sense, etc. but they are not going against reason. Therefore what would be considered sinful in an adult is not sinful in a young child.
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Post by messengermicah on Jul 5, 2006 21:44:08 GMT -5
Lusts of the flesh is the unlawful use of the natural, God given desires. Using them for a selfish purpose instead of the virtuous purpose of glorifying God.
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Post by messengermicah on Jul 5, 2006 20:15:18 GMT -5
I reject it also.
If Jesus was in "all points" tempted like as we are (Hebrews 4:15), how can we be born with a sin nature and He is not. That is not an even playing field, and Jesus could not have been tempted in all points as we are.
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Post by messengermicah on Jul 10, 2006 18:20:14 GMT -5
How about the mad man of Gadara who wanted to follow Jesus and Jesus sent Him back home.
I am not taking a side, I am just bringing it up.
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Post by messengermicah on Jun 22, 2006 22:39:17 GMT -5
Great article and comments.
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Post by messengermicah on Jun 10, 2006 1:11:27 GMT -5
Yes, I think you should preach in front of their church.
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Post by messengermicah on Jun 8, 2006 14:52:48 GMT -5
Deuteronomy 1:39 is another good verse.
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Post by messengermicah on Jun 8, 2006 9:47:22 GMT -5
Yes, injected by Augustine in the 5th century.
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Post by messengermicah on Jun 8, 2006 9:22:35 GMT -5
I agree with your views above brother. I do not agree with the doctrine of original sin. It sounds like you do not agree with it either.
I see no clear indication of that doctrine taught in the bible.
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Post by messengermicah on Jul 30, 2006 21:19:20 GMT -5
Good to read you again Armen!
How is it going? Are you at that pastorate now?
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Post by messengermicah on May 19, 2006 14:58:08 GMT -5
You are right but I don't think we are singling out those two, it is just that they were brought up.
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Post by messengermicah on May 19, 2006 13:52:12 GMT -5
I have met MANY people from both Vineyard and Calvary churches who preach easy believism and live worldy, compromised, sinful lives. I am sure there are exceptions but I am not too impressed with either of them.
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Post by messengermicah on May 19, 2006 11:19:40 GMT -5
I agree with Josh too condemning much of the modern practices of charismatic churches and the so called gifts (tongues included).
He may not be a cessationist however if you go back and read his posts he was debating the issue from the standpoint of a cessationist.
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Post by messengermicah on May 18, 2006 22:55:00 GMT -5
Doc H,
The thread on tongues was started by Josh Williamson. He claims he is not a cessationist but was debating as if he is one. He seemed to be coming against tongues and the gifts like yourself.
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Post by messengermicah on May 24, 2006 14:29:45 GMT -5
Doc H,
No false converts in the congregation huh, but a guy was living with his father's wife and the church had not rebuked the guy?
I merely used the standards you were using to interpret that verse. I still believe it means the gifts are available to every man to profit withal.
1 Corinthians 14 says if a person speaks in a unknown tongue they are speaking to God and not unto man. It also says it is edifying (like Jude 20). How could it be babbling or gibberish or for the purpose of being a sign to unbelievers, or for the sole purpose of reaching others of another language when we are told we are speaking to God and not unto men?
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Post by messengermicah on May 23, 2006 10:17:05 GMT -5
Yes Josh you are right.
Is av1611 a real person or is he just some mocker to try to make fundamentalists look like idiots. He makes all these dogmatic statements, and can never defend them or back them up intelligently. It is like we are supposed to accept it just because he says so.
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Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 23:01:14 GMT -5
av1611,
You ignore the bible, "I have not experienced it, I am all knowing, my doctrine is perfect, I am never wrong, therefore it can't be so even though it is in the bible."
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Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 22:58:27 GMT -5
Doc H,
One more thing for now. The way you are using 1 Corinthians 12:7 to say "every man" would mean that even unbelievers have spiritual gifts.
I was not saying Mark 11:24 was talking about spiritual gifts (it is about prayer of course), but pointing out that 1 Corinthians 14:1 says we are to desire spiritual gifts. You don't desire something you already have, but something you don't have. It says to pray with desire in Mark 11:24. I was pointing out that gifts don't just come automatically. God prepares us first so we will not mishandle them.
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Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 22:33:20 GMT -5
What are you trying to operate in the word of knowledge or something and see into my life? Well you are operating in a demonic gift because you are wrong.
Sorry, av1611 but I don't go to Benny Hinn meetings. Nice try to try to identify me with that sort of thing since you are unable to back up your position with scriptures.
Yes ignoring the Scriptures will get you in trouble so put your money where your mouth is and stop doing it by denying the gifts have ceased.
Very immature of you. Can anyone say AD HOMINEM?
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Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 22:06:21 GMT -5
av1611,
If it is so simple prove it like you have been asked. Put up or shut up.
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Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 22:05:27 GMT -5
Doc H,
I am not going to respond to everything you wrote right now but I want to point out that Phillip had signs follow while preaching at Samaria (Acts 8), Paul had signs at Ephesus (Acts 19:11-12), and also at the Island of Melita in Acts 28, so I don't think your point about signs only following when preaching to Jews is valid.
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Post by messengermicah on May 22, 2006 10:40:35 GMT -5
av1611,
Doc H has us where? We have refuted everything you have thrown at us with scripture (the KJV which you SAY you believe by the way).
You nor Doc H have proven by the KJV of the bible that the gifts have ceased. You have been repeatedly challenged to do so and have not done it.
To sit here and repeatedly make statements like you make with NO scriptural references is ridiculous. When are you guys ever going to respond to Josh's post?
Sorry Doc H to include you in there. You have become much more reasonable in your discussion with us and I have no problem if you disagree with me.
However, av1611, I cannot believe you are accusing all people who believe in the gifts of the Spirit of being demonic. This borders on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and you should be careful.
You are not talking to flako's that live and excuse sin. You are talking to people who put their life on the line on a regular basis for the cause of Christ, live in loving obedience and holiness to the Lord, and preach all the fundamental doctrines.
I don't care if you disagree with me but I think you need to be careful. I guess you also believe most of the persecuted church in the world is also demonic because they usually believe in the sign gifts.
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Post by messengermicah on May 21, 2006 23:30:03 GMT -5
Doc H,
Believe both. If God's holy Word (KJV I might add) tells us these signs will follow those that believe as the word of God is preached but we do not believe it then we have no grounds to expect it to happen.
The gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 are not automatic and not every man automatically has one. Why do you think it says "Follow after love and DESIRE spiritual gifts..." 1 Corinthians 14:1. Mark 11:24 says, "What things soever you DESIRE when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them".
I understand 1 Corinthians 12:7 to mean they are AVAILABLE to profit every man. Who does the gift of healing profit, (please no jokes here about televangelists getting rich by exploiting people but I wouldn't blame you for being sarcastic) the person getting healed or the person through whom the gift is operating? It benefits the person getting the healing.
For the umpteenth time I do not believe all cessationalists are damned. I do think a gospel that is preached with signs following can potentially be more effective and powerful than one without signs following.
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Post by messengermicah on May 21, 2006 22:04:11 GMT -5
Doc H,
It does not say these signs shall follow all those who preach as you quoted above. It says these signs shall follow them that believe.
These signs do not follow those that do not believe.
There are many who preach and do not believe.
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Post by messengermicah on May 15, 2006 18:50:10 GMT -5
I am interested in getting in on this and I will. Right now I am very busy with my court trial on Wednesday, back up soldiers coming to our house next week to preach a big event down here (urban beach week), and the end of the school year.
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 20:38:29 GMT -5
Oh man! I think that is the guy who I did not look at his website thoroughly but just looked at the title of some of his articles and thought it might be good. I posted it in the website section of this MB in the early days here. I actually read one of his articles and found out he does not believe hell is literal.
Jesse had mercy on me and finally removed that post of mine. Thanks Jesse. How embarrased I was!
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 21:08:25 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with you. I guess it is probably an awkward spot to be in for a very humble man of God when there is so much flakiness going on about people going around calling themselves prophets.
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 20:33:54 GMT -5
Good point, biblethumper, but I am not saying they were not prophets. I am just repeating what they said.
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Post by messengermicah on May 14, 2006 18:24:32 GMT -5
Josh,
I honestly believe you are not being open to what I am saying in this discussion. I have asked you several questions, made several points, and all you responded with was we don't need prophets today. I have not been sarcastic or unreasonable. I have pointed out many things to you.
You said that if a prophecy did not come to pass then the person saying it was a false prophet. I pointed out that you have to be careful with this because then by the standard you are using Jonah was a false prophet. He gave a time frame and what he said did not come to pass.
I asked you to read Jeremiah 18:7-10 and asked for your thoughts on it more than once and you never responded.
Now I am getting the impression you are more interested in being right here than the truth. Now you have changed what you said earlier by saying Jonah was a true prophet because he said what God told him to say. By the standard you are using on Wilkerson you would also categorize him as a false prophet because his prophecy did not come to pass.
Just as a side issue, David Wilkerson along with Leonard Ravenhill never claimed themselves to be prophets.
I also think you are being dogmatic on an issue you have not studied out for yourself about there being prophets today.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and not put words in your mouth. It sounds like you are saying there are no prophets today, but what you actually said is we don't need prophets today.
Either way I believe you are incorrect. Read Ephesians 4:11-15. Has the body of Christ come to unity in the faith yet? Have we come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet? Of course not. So God is still giving apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to mature and equip the body of Christ.
Do believe in pastors Josh? This is the only scripture in the new testament where we find that word. How about evangelists?
The verse you quoted in Ephesians 2:20 confirms there are apostles and prophets today, but their life and message must be built on Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, in Revelation 11 God calls His two witnesses prophets. Is this speaking of past events or future?
God can speak to people in several ways. By His word, by His Spirit, by men of God, dreams, visions, etc.
When a man of God is speaking under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and we are receiving information it is still God speaking to that person (Hebrews 1:1-2).
I certainly do not agree that all these people running around with titles in front of their names are true apostles and prophets. I think Brother Yun from the Heavenly Man book was a true apostle.
I am trying to be reasonable and truthful here. I hope you are honestly searching for the truth in this matter.
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