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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 21, 2009 9:16:57 GMT -5
9:35, I get that all the time. So according to you: We must live a perfect, holy, obedient life in order to be saved (which I would agree with) but we don't have to be baptized. Yet, obedience is required for salvation. I'm confused as of how the doctrine of Eternal Security offers any security. I like to ask Calvinist how they know they're saved.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 16, 2009 15:12:33 GMT -5
Authority – The ability or strength with which one is endued: Permission or liberty.Two kinds of Authority: 1. Generic Authority – Including all the methods or ways for doing that, which is authorized. 2. Specific Authority – Precisely formulated or restricted; specifying or explicit. Generic Authority grants liberty. Example: Tim’s dad gave him $5’s to rent a movie. Tim has the liberty to pick which movie he will decide to rent with his fathers’ money (so long as he abides by the ratings.) Scriptural example: Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all authority has been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the ends of the earth.” - Liberty is given to those who live under the Great Commission as to how and where they might go so long as they are preaching the Gospel.
Specific Authority specifies. In doing so, the individual is restricted to alternative avenues, which are not specified. Example: Tim’s dad gave him $5’s to rent this movie. Tim does not have the liberty to rent that movie with the money that his fathers gave him. Scriptural example: Genesis 6:14-16 “Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion, which thou shalt make it of: the length of the ark shall Be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and The door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second and third stories shalt thou make it.”
- Noah did not have the liberty to add an extra window. Nor did he have the liberty to construct it ten feet longer with yellow pine.
- Had Noah chosen to fashion the ark the way in which he thought it should be done, the ark would not have survived.
Authority is established through one of three ways: 1. Direct Statement 2. Approved Example 3. Necessary inference. - In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus’ first command was to “Go.” This is an example of Generic Authority, which grants liberty to those who are commanded to “Go.”
- Jesus then commands his disciples to “Teach.” Once again, Jesus did not say “How” to teach, whether it is with words or ink, one has the liberty to choose. Thus tracts, flyers, sandwich boards, and sign language are acceptable.
- The command given in Mark 16:15 (additional to the Great Commission) is an example of Specific Authority because we’re told specifically to preach the “gospel.”
- Good works apart from the preaching of the gospel do not constitute as evangelism. Evangelism must always, without exception, include the teaching of the Gospel in some way, form or fashion.
Explicit and direct commands establish Specific Authority, which restricts and binds, bounds and chains, regulates and restrains the individuals right to establish or decree, create or attach, and install or institute methods foreign to that which was specified. “Jesus took the bread… I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine…” Matthew 26:26,29Here, Jesus restricts his approval to those who choose to obey his command and partake of the bread and fruit of the vine until he returns. So then, I ask the question, does one hold the authority to bring Pizza and Root Beer into the Lord’s Supper? Though one may do so, he does not do so in the name of Jesus Christ meaning that Christ has not given him the authority or liberty to do so. In fact, the Apostle Paul condemns him that does so. “And if any man hunger let him eat at home;” (1 Corinthians 11:34)“And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” Ephesians 5:18-19
Those who assemble on the first day of the week, as the scriptures say must sing unanimously. “Speaking to one another (NKJV)” denotes a plurality of individuals in one accord and thus, eliminating solo presentations. “Singing” is more explicitly specified with the word “Speaking” which is to be accomplished with the mouth. Thus, one is bound and restricted to the addition of Mechanical Musical Instruments. “For we walk by faith, not by sight” 2 Corinthians 5:7
and “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17One cannot be walking by faith while playing Mechanical Musical Instruments in the assembly of the saints because the word of God has not commanded one to do so. Those who chose to take up Mechanical Musical Instruments in the assembly of the saints are not worshiping God in the way he has commanded. Thus, their worship is rejected by God just as Cain’s offering was rejected by God. “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain…” Hebrews 11:4Abel offered what God wanted him to offer. Cain chose to worship God the way in which he wanted. After being rejected God said unto Cain: “Why art thou wrought? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?” Genesis 4:6,7 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. Jude 11
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 16, 2009 12:07:34 GMT -5
Permissible Calvinism Requires:
1. The division of Christ
2. The Crucification of John Calvin.
3. Baptism in the name of John Calvin.
"I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you..." 1 Corinthians 1:10-13
You cannot call yourself a Calvinist and if you chose to do so you are living in sin. The same goes for denominating yourself with unscriptural designations.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 7, 2009 18:19:43 GMT -5
There's a lot of Seventh Day Adventists on the Oaklahoma TV stations that dogmatically teach the doctrine of soul sleep. Yet I'd like to hear how they respond to my question.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 7, 2009 9:30:56 GMT -5
I've looked up a few proponents of this doctrine. I cannot find anyone who can answer my question: Where does the soul exist after physical death?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding their arguments and need to be corrected. However, from what I understand this doctrine to teach is that when one dies the soul does not ascend to heaven, nor does it descend to hell. Neither is it cast into Hades (the abode of the dead). If the soul is not in either of these places, then where is it? If it's still sleeping inside the body, then what about the bodies that have been disintegrated?
Anyone ever heard someone answer this? Thoughts, ideas, experiences, and encounters with proponents of this doctrine would be interesting to hear.
Note: I do not hold to the view of Soul Sleep. The Bible teaches that the soul is cast into the divided realm of Hades (Sheol). One side of paradise and the other of torment.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 1, 2009 11:42:48 GMT -5
I have been thinking about Ephesians 5:5-7, especially "...cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of DISOBEDIENCE. BE NOT YE THEREFORE PARTAKERS WITH THEM." 1. This is a warning to Christians. 2. Christians would partake of God's wrath if they disobey and become sinners 3. Obedience is a condition of staying saved 4. Obedience or disobedience is a free choice 5. Staying saved or not is a free choice. Powerful truths! "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator hath any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of thesethings cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them." Eph. 5:5-7 It seems clear: - that salvation can be lost - obedience is a condition of staying saved - We have a free choice Agreed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 talks about those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord. "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." This let's us know that no that no denominations will make it to heaven because they violate 1 Corinthians 1:10. Those who have rejected the words of Christ will still be judged by the words of Christ and all men will be held accountable for the things they did, believed, and taught. John 12:48 Also, no sinner makes it to heaven 1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous are scarcly saved where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear."
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 1, 2009 10:37:20 GMT -5
If these things would keep someone from an event, the following people would not be allowed: - John Wesley: he believed in free will and perfection - Charles Finney: he believed in free will, perfection, moral government - William Booth: he believed in free will and perfection - Catherine Booth: she believed in moral government and mg atonement - Duncan Campbell: he believed in perfection - Leonard Ravenhill: he believed in free will, perfection, and mg atonement - A. W. Tozer: he believed in free will, perfection, and did not believe in the "payment" atonement Don't forget the Early Church Fathers who taught free will and perfection as well. I didn't say I agreed with his doctrinal views. It's refreshing seeing someone taking a stand against doctrinal divisions.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on May 1, 2009 8:59:22 GMT -5
What is with the religious world and tolerating divisions? Though, Ray Comfort is wrong in 90% of his doctrinal beliefs, at least he's dividing what he sees to be the truth from error.
We are commanded in the scriptures to mark out those who cause division and have no fellowship with them.
I want to see scriptural justification for doctrinal divisions. (That is, doctrinal difference being permissable.)
At least someone in this nation is standing up for doctrinal unity. It's just too bad that it has to be those who have divided themselves from the truth. Moreover - Why would anyone be offended that they cannot attend this meeting if they doctrinally disagree with Ray Comfort? Why would anyone want to attend this meeting if they doctrinally disagree with Ray Comfort?
Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 30, 2009 20:12:31 GMT -5
Yes, and I'm glad we both came to the same conclusion when looking at those scriptures. No, not the same conclusion that I came to......just making sure that is what you were saying. You should explain how one calls upon the name of the Lord on the "Sinners Prayer" forum.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 30, 2009 14:58:36 GMT -5
If I am reading correctly, you are saying that calling upon the Lord is done through Baptism rather than prayer? Yes, and I'm glad we both came to the same conclusion when looking at those scriptures.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 22:06:35 GMT -5
jonathan, what is your position on water baptism? I would suggest that no one who believes would deny that we should be baptized. But, do you make it a requirement for salvation? Peace, dmatic Water Baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God and it is how one calls upon the name of the Lord.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 16:19:40 GMT -5
John - Have you been baptized ?? I have been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. By the way - do you even know who started you church John and when it happened. Or have you at least been told of this man by those in your church. What's his name ?? Jesus started his church and added me to it when I obeyed the Gospel. Acts 2:47 His name is Jesus Christ.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 16:14:59 GMT -5
Yes. I'm following the "Fella" that started the Churches of Christ (Jesus Christ) and I would suggest you do the same. My religions in the Bible, where's yours? The body of Christ is the church. So the Church is of Christ. Making it the Church of Christ because he shed his blood for it. Christ is the husband of the Church and there is only one church and it is found in the Bible. Col 1:18 At least I read the Bible. hahaha Johathan Johathan Jonathan Your church is a cult that denies original sin. Have you been baptized in the trinitarian form?? Prove original sin. There's no baptismal formula.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 16:13:36 GMT -5
The Bible tells us that. I know your a Catholic and all but I would encourage you to actually read that verse. No John - you tell us that. You tell us what it means sir. At least admit that you interpret the Bible for yourself. Be honest The Bible interprets it's self.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 16:12:07 GMT -5
O come on Jonathan - Your not following the fella that started the "church of Christ" are you? Yes. I'm following the "Fella" that started the Churches of Christ (Jesus Christ) and I would suggest you do the same. You know, the church with the little sign out front that says "establich 33 A.D." As if they have theit own popish lineage back to the first century ?? That is a man made religion that came long after the reformation, man. My religions in the Bible, where's yours? Just because the Apostle refered to the Church in this way does not mean that he was setabliching an official name that some fella can comandeer over 1500 years later for his own purposes. The body of Christ is the church. So the Church is of Christ. Making it the Church of Christ because he shed his blood for it. Christ is the husband of the Church and there is only one church and it is found in the Bible. Col 1:18 This is what happens when you read the Bible with rose colored glasses Jonathan. At least I read the Bible. hahaha
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:58:10 GMT -5
The Bible tells us it contains all truth. 2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 2 PETER 1:3 Say's who ?? YOU ?? who are you to interpret the scripture that is of no private interpretation jonathan ?? The Bible tells us that. I know your a Catholic and all but I would encourage you to actually read that verse.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:56:40 GMT -5
WRONG. The Bible warns us about the other churches that were being established. In fact, the Paul told the Christians to mark those who cause divisions. Romans 16:17 1 Corinthians 1:10 The Apostles told us about the true church. They knew that there were other churches being established. Read Ephesians 4:4-6. There is ONE body which is the church. The Bible talks a lot more about the church than you think it does. You don't get any more cultish than this. Jesus has a church. I didn't die for it... There is only one true Church Jonathan. It is the one that your 'seperators' seperated from. The True one. The universal one. The Catholic one. Care to show me another one that's not in your imagination?? Romans 16:16 "... The Churches of Christ salute you."
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:54:50 GMT -5
Oh yea take a deep breath man relax O.K. I never said that the Scripture was not inspired - It is - but it does not say that it is the sole source of truth. It does say however that the world could not contain all the books that would need to be written to elaborate all of Christ's works. Here is where you said that Paul was not telling us that the New Testament is inspired by God: Oh come on now - you're chasing your own tail friend. Paul told Timothy that the scripture was inspired that's all and he was referring to the Old Testament!!!T his deposit of Faith was vouchsafed to the Apostles and comes to us through Apostolic sucession. I want Bible verses. You have no authority. J esus told His Apostles to go and teach what He had tought them. He didn't say go and pass out Bibles. John tells us that he has written his epistle in order that we can know that we have eternal life. 1 John 5:13 We can't know that we have eternal life unless we read what he wrote. Moreover, we cannot believe in God unless we read or hear what was written. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Not the Pope...
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:45:30 GMT -5
The Bible has told us it's perfect. No error's can be found in it. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that the scriptures are profitable for ever good work. You're as lost as they get. Why does something that is perfect have to contain all truth? The Bible tells us it contains all truth. 2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 2 PETER 1:3
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:43:45 GMT -5
Sir, the Catholic Church was the only Church in existence at the time. WRONG. The Bible warns us about the other churches that were being established. In fact, the Paul told the Christians to mark those who cause divisions. Romans 16:17 1 Corinthians 1:10 What's so incredible about the Fact that the writters of the New Testament took for granted tath they were writting about themselves. The Apostles told us about the true church. They knew that there were other churches being established. Read Ephesians 4:4-6. There is ONE body which is the church. The Bible talks a lot more about the church than you think it does. You will never understand the Scriptures without the Church. You don't get any more cultish than this. You don't have a Church? You do have a Church!! She has been there all along - Fot the last 2000 years. Jesus has a church. I didn't die for it...
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:34:46 GMT -5
For what ever reason you are convinced that everything that is truth is in the Bible - WHY? What has convinced you of this - THE BIBLE?? The Bible has told us it's perfect. No error's can be found in it. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that the scriptures are profitable for ever good work. You're as lost as they get.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:30:18 GMT -5
Sir, the Church came before the New Testament. The Church gave us the Bible. Of course. The New Testament was not complete when Jesus established his church. It's hilarious that the New Testament came after the church yet the New Testament says nothing about the Catholic Church. hahahaha Your waiting to see the Catholic Church taught in the Bible??? Yes. I'm waiting to see the Bible taught in "your" church.!!! I don't have a church.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:26:53 GMT -5
You'd better get used to the all sufficiency and infallibility of the scriptures because you'll be judged by it on the day of Judgment. He who rejects Me, and does not receive my words, has that which judges him -- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. John 12:48 And I suppose that if everything that Christ did was written down then the whole world couldn't contain all the books that would need to be written - RIGHT??? Get the picture? Jesus told the Apostles that he who rejects you rejects Me and the one who sent Me. You are rejecting God by rejecting His Apostles given the us through sucession from Peter. haha. So the New Testaments not inspired by God and you're using twisting it to prove your case. Hilarious. You are rejecting the Apostles because you're rejecting Paul's words in 2 TImothy 3:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 4:6.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:24:05 GMT -5
If the Bible is not the only source of truth then Paul lied to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Sacred Traditions are found within the scriptures because they were recorded and given to all of the churches as the Apostles traveled through each town. Acts 16:4 Oh come on now - you're chasing your own tail friend. Paul told Timothy that the scripture was inspired that's all and he was referring to the Old Testament!!! And who are you to say that all traditionis are in the Bible? You are doing what you are accusing me of I think How foolish. How am I establishing my own church and traditions? Bible and Bible alone.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:19:58 GMT -5
There's no Catholic Church in that entire chapter. There is a church of Christ in that chapter but not Catholic Church. Have you ever read a history book? The Catholic Church was the only Church for 1500 years. Unless your going to adhere to that ridiculious invisible theory. Which can't be proven... Waiting to see your church in the Bible.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:16:59 GMT -5
When are you going to start defending what you believe with the Bible and stop going beyond that which is written? I'm under no obligation to do so sir. The Scripture does not establish sola-scriptura. You'd better get used to the all sufficiency and infallibility of the scriptures because you'll be judged by it on the day of Judgment. He who rejects Me, and does not receive my words, has that which judges him -- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. John 12:48
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:13:38 GMT -5
The church was established on the day of Pentecost. 2 Peter 1:21 God inspired the Apostles. God gave us the Bible 2 Tim 3:16,17 You still haven't shown me where your church is in the Bible. How about Matt. 16:18 ? There's no Catholic Church in that entire chapter. There is a church of Christ in that chapter but not Catholic Church.
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:11:43 GMT -5
Odd. I can't find that bible verse ANYWHERE. Sir, The Bible is not the only source of Truth. We also have Sacred tradition and the Church. If the Bible is not the only source of truth then Paul lied to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Sacred Traditions are found within the scriptures because they were recorded and given to all of the churches as the Apostles traveled through each town. Acts 16:4
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:09:41 GMT -5
The scripture contains the Word of God - Which tells us not to go beyond that which is written... 1 Corinthians 4:6 Says who? YOU? ?? HA! Get a job man and support the Church. You're no one to interpret the Holy Scripture for us. When are you going to start defending what you believe with the Bible and stop going beyond that which is written?
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Post by jonathandwhitehead on Apr 29, 2009 15:07:01 GMT -5
If Mary is not your Mother - God is not your Father. Odd. I can't find that bible verse ANYWHERE.
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