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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 10:22:55 GMT -5
I filly believe, in response to runner4Jesus, that babies are born sinless...WITHOUT sin.
One becomes a sinner when one reaches the age of accountability and violates his or her conscience by violating the Moral Law which God has written on all hearts.
At that moment one becomes a sinner.
Babies are not sinners, as Paul the Apostle testifies that he was alive before the law (or the knowledge of the Moral Law).
Also, in my article, I list the Scriptures where the Word implies one becomes a sinner in his or her youth, not infancy.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Jeremiah 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
Praise God that the Word of God has the answer to all questions!
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 24, 2007 11:11:25 GMT -5
Dan: It is better to believe what Romans 5:12-19 than what you want to believe. Either you don't understand or your greatly deceived. We were not born SINLESS. Only Jesus the Lamb of God was born with NO SIN. As teachers we are in serious trouble with the Lord when we teach FALSELY. Dan, you say your full of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost would never teach contrary to the Word of God. Romans 3:4 God forbid yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 11:21:38 GMT -5
Dan: It is better to believe what Romans 5:12-19 than what you want to believe. Either you don't understand or your greatly deceived. We were not born SINLESS. Only Jesus the Lamb of God was born with NO SIN. As teachers we are in serious trouble with the Lord when we teach FALSELY. Romans 3:4 God forbid yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Actually, runner4Jesus, Jesse, Revk, myself and several others here believe as I do and vice versa. You've just indicted myself, Jesse Morrell, RevK and the others who believe the "born in sin" doctrine is not Scriptural, as either ignorant of the Word or "greatly deceived", as you put it. Can you show, from Scripture alone, how this indictment against us is correct? Romans 5 clearly states that death and judgment came on all men because of one man (Adam). Can you show us where it states sin came into all at conception/birth? You still haven't shown from Romans where sin came into all men at birth. Looking forward to your reply.
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 24, 2007 11:30:43 GMT -5
Dan, you are more deceived than originally thought, if you cannot believe what Romans 5 says. You are reading into scripture what is false. If you cannot believe Romans 5, you won't believe any other scriptures. It's futile and God through the Holy Ghost will have to reveal to you and the others that we are NOT BORN SINLESS. ONLY GOD!!! Will have to show you. I'm saddened by this false teaching on this board. You should not include Jesse in this false teaching until we have directly heard from him.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 11:57:21 GMT -5
It was Jesse who initially challenged me on the doctrine, and he did so publically, and I'm thankful he did so openly; my view has since changed after taking Jesse's exhortation to look further into the "born in sin" doctrine.
Also, as you have called myself deceived as well as others here who believe the doctrine, it is useless to go further into the discussion with you as you have made the statement without Biblical references other than Romans 5 which itself not once states sin passed on all men, but death and judgment only.
May the Lord Himself be witness here this day and open the eyes of those who are deceived, whether that be you or whether that be me.
Due to your accusations I will no longer engage you as you seem more interested in making statements not backed with Scriptural references or backed with references that don't even say "sin".
I am not apt to engage in discussions where others make accusations of deception and false doctrine and such things without first studying to see whether these things be so... and it takes more than a thread on a Forum to make the accusations you have made.
Amen.
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Post by joem on Aug 24, 2007 12:43:22 GMT -5
Dan, you are more deceived than originally thought, if you cannot believe what Romans 5 says. You are reading into scripture what is false. If you cannot believe Romans 5, you won't believe any other scriptures. It's futile and God through the Holy Ghost will have to reveal to you and the others that we are NOT BORN SINLESS. ONLY GOD!!! Will have to show you. I'm saddened by this false teaching on this board. You should not include Jesse in this false teaching until we have directly heard from him. runner4jesus, You have been making statements that assume your position without offering any proof to back up your position. The reason you have not received the responses you desire is because you are not engaging in a conversation about the issue, just making claims based upon your own understanding. Several of the folks here, including myself, have traced the doctrine of original sin to its roots, and found Augustine, not Jesus, the prophets or apostles. I understand that you are being challenged on what you believe is an unchallengeable truth, but until you try to understand the origin of this doctrine and deal with the many inconsistencies that it poses, you simply side step the issue. For instance, if babies are born sinners, babies go to hell. There is no age of accountability given in scripture. Also, if sin is passed on from person to person, Jesus being born of a woman would be a born sinner. The argument Augustine made was that sin was transferred through the semen of man, therefore Jesus never received that sin. However if Jesus came from Mary and she was a born sinner, and sin is hereditary, Jesus at least had a half sinful nature as Mary certainly descended from a man and woman. To believe such a thing as Jesus being born a half sinner is just as ridiculous as believing a baby is a sinner without ever committing a sin. The point is, if you want to argue for your position, you need to know where it came from and be able to contend by providing proof from scripture and be able to respond to challenges to your interpretations, which will likely include passages used in opposition to your position. To simply make a statement and then say everyone that says otherwise is wrong, is not contending for the faith. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 13:15:09 GMT -5
Joem, this argument is flawed. Jesus would not have been born a sinner because he was born of woman. Supposing sin passed through Adam (male), then Jesus would not have been a sinner being born of Mary. Mary was born of man, but not Christ. Mary's womb was just a channel bearing the sinless Lamb of God. Your argument about "half-sinner" is totally unfounded.
Jesus Christ is the Second Adam. He was not OF the first Adam, like we all are. Why? If we are all born totally sinless, why couldn't Christ have been born of Adam one and lived holy onward? There is something about being born of Adam that is a problem: I haven't figured it out yet, but it's something, because obviously Jesus was not born of Adam. If we are sinless at birth, I don't see why Christ could not have been born of Adam, but He wasn't.
Abel, Cain and Seth were all born after the fall, and we come from them. Jesus, I believe, as the Second Adam, was as Adam was before the fall. Still absolutely human... in fact, MORE human than you and I, for humans were not meant to sin or be sinners. Christ was more human than any man that ever lived. And He did not deserve to die, for death did not pass upon Him hereditary, as it has us, and so Christ dying on the cross was a cosmic travesty and unbelievably wicked and unheard of event. He was the ONLY man that never deserved to be on the cross. He willingly gave up His life for us sins.
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 24, 2007 13:16:08 GMT -5
Joe: Jesus was born SINLESS because he was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Mary was born in sin because of what Romans 5 says. The origin is the bible.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 13:29:20 GMT -5
Eli Said: There is something about being born of Adam that is a problem
Amen and agreed, Brother!
The problem is dealt with in Romans 5; death and judgment passed on all men because of Adam... but where does it say sin passed on all men?
If sin passed on all men at conception, why didn't Paul the Apostle specifically state so?
Why did he not say, death, judgment and sin?
The "born in sin" doctrine lacks Scriptural pattern and I have yet to see where Paul anywhere states sin passed on all men because of Adam.
Jesus was Born of a Virgin, Amen!
Death and judgment had no hold on Him.
It has a hold on us because of Adam (Romans 5).
I have yet to see where sin has passed from Adam to those conceived in the womb.
God bless you, Eli and keep Preaching the Truth of the Gospel, dear Brother!
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2007 13:33:54 GMT -5
Eli, I am still struggling with this whole thing myself. How do you reconcile what you said about us being born with a sin nature and therefore "sinners" at conception with these verses:
Hebrews 2:17 says, "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest..."
Also, Hebrews 2:18 says, "For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted."
And Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but was in ALL POINTS tempted AS WE ARE, yet without sin."
-If Christ was REALLY tempted in ALL POINTS, just AS WE ARE, and we are born with a Sinful Nature (and therefore born "sinners"), then He had to of been born with a sinful nature too according to this Scripture, right? If we are born with a sinful nature and are tempted by it to sin and Christ wasn't born with a sinful nature that tempted Him, then how was He tempted in ALL POINTS AS WE ARE? I just don't think I can reconcile this...
Here are some other questions that I have been pondering:
If babies are born sinners, then do babies go to Hell? The Bible talks about people being sinners from their youth, not from their birth:
• Genesis 8:21 says, “The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth;” • Jeremiah 3:25 says, “Let us lie down in our shame, and let our humiliation cover us; for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day. And we have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.” • Deuteronomy 1:39 says, “‘Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.” • Isaiah 7:15-16 says, “He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. “For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.” • Ecclesiastes 7:29 says, “Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.” • Romans 9:11 says, “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.”
If Babies do go to Hell, is it because of their sin or Adam's sin?
Do babies and children have the ability to repent and trust in Jesus Christ?
If they don't have the ability to repent and trust, does God's Grace and Mercy apply to them?
What about mentally handicapped people who don't have the ability to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus?
Is the sinful nature something that MAKES someone sin or something that gives them a PRONENESS to sin?
I don't think Psalm 51:5 is talking about a sinful nature. It mentions nothing of Adam, Eve, the garden or the rest of the human race! It mentions David alone! It is very hard to build a complete doctrine around one verse of Scripture where David is crying out to God in repentance. It is poetic Scripture, not didactic Scripture.
On top of all of this, the doctrine of Original Sin (as we know it today) is definitely NOT historical. Just take a look at what some of the ECF's said concerning this issue:
• Justin the Martyr of the Early Church said, “Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.” And “unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart) • Tertullian of the same century said, “No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart) • Origen said, “The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue could be ascribed to it; nor would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor its declination to vice punishment.” Again, “How could God require that of man which he [man] had not power to offer Him?” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62, published by Truth in Heart) • Augustine said, “They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart) • Clement of Alexandria said, “Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart) • Jerome said, “God has bestowed us with free will. We are not necessarily drawn either to virtue or vice. For when necessity rules, there is no room left either for damnation or the crown.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62, published by Truth in Heart) • Tertullian said, “In pursuance of that aspect of the association of body and soul that we now have to consider, we maintain that the puberty of the soul coincides with that of the body. Generally speaking, they both attain together this full growth at about the fourteenth year of life. The soul attains it by the suggestion of the senses, and the body attains it by the growth of the bodily members. I do not mention [the age of fourteen] because reflection begins at that age (as Asclepiades supposes). Nor do I choose it because the civil laws date the commencement of the real business of life from this age. Rather, I choose it because this was the appointed order from the very first. For after their obtaining knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve felt that they must cover their nakedness. Likewise, we profess to have the same discernment of good and evil from the time that we experience the same sensation of shame. Now, beginning with the aforementioned age, sex is suffused and clothed with a special sensibility. This eye gives way to lust and communicates its pleasure to another. It understands the natural relations between male and female, and it wears the fig-leaf apron to cover the shame that it still excites.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 7, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “The human race…from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent. Each one had committed personal transgression.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “The whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the Law of Moses, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the Law and do them.’ And no one has accurately done them all.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Irenaeus said, “By means of our first parents, we were all brought into bondage by being made subject to death.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “I have proved in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Tatian said, “We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Melito said, “There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (c.170, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Theophilus said, “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Irenaeus said, “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Irenaeus said, “’Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Clement of Alexandria said, “We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Clement of Alexandria said, “Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Clement of Alexandria said, “To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Tertullian said, “I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (c.207, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 288, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
If you were one of Michael Vick's friends and you commanded a dog to fly over and over again (something a dog obviously cannot do) and then decided to drown him when he didn't, what would you think?
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 13:44:41 GMT -5
Hey Dan, bless you brother,
Yes, I totally understand the argument that has been put forth.
"For this reason, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death; and thus death passed through [or, extended] to all people, for that [or, because] all sinned." (Romans 5:12, Analytical-Literal)
I have a few comments about this verse. First, if death is the punishment for Adam's sin, and that punishment passed upon all men... is that fair if all men are born sinless? Why should I die and bear the punishment of Adam's sin? After all, I didn't commit it. Because none of us would say we die because of our own sin... ie. once I sin as a boy THEN I am sentenced to death. No, it doesn't work like that; babies die, and death passed upon all men as the punishment of Adam's sin.
The reason for this is stated "for that all sinned." John Wesley even wrote concerning this: "All sinned - In Adam. These words assign the reason why death came upon all men; infants themselves not excepted, in that all sinned."
This, I believe, answers the question as to why the punishment is extended upon all men: because all [have] sinned (past tense) in Adam. Just as Levi payed the tithe in Abraham, making this kind of scenario completely valid, so we all who have been born OF Adam sinned IN Adam. This is why Christ had to be born a virgin wholly separate from Adam, or else we would have to conclude that IN Adam Jesus sinned, which is unthinkable. Christ was not born of Adam at all, He was the second man, a man completely whole and spotless.
I'll pause there for now.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 13:47:23 GMT -5
The "in Adam" statement has caused me to want to ponder further. Thank you for engaging me in this discussion in a manner which has made me stop to reflect the "in Adam" part of your post. My question, however, would be, "WHEN did we sin in Adam?" This is an interesting topic to discuss and, again, thank you Brother
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Post by joem on Aug 24, 2007 13:54:27 GMT -5
If Jesus was flesh, which He was, He had within His makeup the flesh of Mary. If Mary's flesh was sinful, so was Jesus. Exactly which part of the semen contains the sin? If the father makes a woman sinful and her sinful flesh produces eggs, then it makes sinful eggs does it not? If her sinful egg concieves without meeting a sinful sperm, you still have a sinful baby, at least on the mothers side. Ridiculous? Yes. As ridiculous as inherited sin? No. Of course Jesus being a half sinner is unfounded, because inherited sin is also unfounded. Augustine's understanding of sexual desire being equal to sin and transferred through the semen is on par with the Darwinist of 60yrs ago believing maggots evolved into flies. It was poor philosophy that birthed the doctrine of original sin, and it is poor philosophy that is keeping it alive here today.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2007 14:01:22 GMT -5
Eli, I have heard the "In Adam" thing before. But does that verse say that? I don't see In Adam anywhere in Romans! And adding those two words contradicts many VERY CLEAR verses found throughout the Bible! Mainly these verses:
• Ezekiel 18:14-20 says, ““Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. “He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. “As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” • Romans 14:12 says, “Therefore each one will give an account of himself to God.” • Deuteronomy 24:16 says, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” • 2 Kings 14:6 says, “The Lord commanded, saying, the fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but everyman shall be put to death for his own sin.” • 2 Chronicles 25:4 says, “The Lord commanded, saying, the fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but everyman shall die for his own sin.” • Romans 2:6 says, “Who will render to everyman according to his deeds.” • 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, weather it be good or bad.” • Matthew 16:27 says, ““For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.” • Revelation 22:12 says, “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”
I truly do respect John Wesley, but that doesn't mean John Wesley couldn't have been wrong on this issue...let's not add to God's Word friends...but just take it as it is...God Bless...
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Post by joem on Aug 24, 2007 14:28:19 GMT -5
Rev,
I believe the passage being referred to is actually a reference to death;
1Cor 15:22 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor 15:23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
These verses have been used as a proof text for OS and universal atonement for years. In an interesting side note, the "in Adam" is supposed to include everyone, yet the "in Christ" is thought to only include the redeemed (unless you are arguing for universal atonement). It is a self refuting position. These verses must be read in context to be properly understood.
Anyway, this passage is speaking of death, not sin. If you want to say that only sinners can die, you make Christ a sinner. Obviously, Christ is not a sinner and so in order to defend OS, the next proposition is made with the intention of justifying the former, so forth and so on.
Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 14:46:33 GMT -5
Hi Kerrigan, Of course he could be wrong! However I do see in the text justification for the "in Adam" argument, in many places, though it might not be worded in that way. "Rom 5:15 But_ not as the offense so also [is] the gracious gift; for if by the offense of the one [man] the many died, much more the grace of God and the free gift by grace of the one Man Jesus Christ abounded to the many. Rom 5:16 And not as through one [man] having sinned [is] the gift; for on the one hand the judgment from one [offense resulted] in condemnation, on the other hand the gracious gift from many offences [resulted] in justification [or, a declared righteousness]. Rom 5:17 For if by the offense of the one [man] death reigned through the one, much more the ones receiving the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness in life will reign through the one [Man], Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 So, consequently, as through one offense [judgment came] to all people [resulting] in condemnation, so also [the gift came] through one righteous deed to all people [resulting] in justification [or, declared righteousness] of life. Rom 5:19 For even as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted [or, caused to be] sinners, so also through the obedience of the one [Man], the many will be constituted righteous."I don't think Paul could have put it in any more words. Because of one man's sin, all are punished; not for our own individual sins, but it says clearly for HIS sin. I find there is a lot of talk about fairness, etc... but is it fair that everyone should be punished for one man's sin? A sin we did not commit? This would be the case if you are correct in saying we are born sinless. The fact is in Adam all have sinned. This is not unbiblical at all, as the example of Abraham and Levi has shown. Come now, we talk much about being IN CHRIST. How can we say this... if we are not willing to accept the extension of this, that IN ADAM we all became sinners.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 15:07:08 GMT -5
Man is born, I believe, with a sin nature, or a leaning towards sin, but I still have yet to see where man is born in sin.
I cannot swallow the pill that places a man in hell today for what a man did almost 6000 years ago.
If there is Scripture to back that assumption up, please do show; otherwise, I cannot believe it, as I cannot see it in Scripture.
Born in sin?
I don't see that in Scripture.
Born with the results of Adam's sin? (Romans 5)
I do see that in Scripture.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2007 15:16:41 GMT -5
However I do see in the text justification for the "in Adam" argument, in many places, though it might not be worded in that way. "Rom 5:15 But_ not as the offense so also [is] the gracious gift; for if by the offense of the one [man] the many died, much more the grace of God and the free gift by grace of the one Man Jesus Christ abounded to the many. Rom 5:16 And not as through one [man] having sinned [is] the gift; for on the one hand the judgment from one [offense resulted] in condemnation, on the other hand the gracious gift from many offences [resulted] in justification [or, a declared righteousness]. Rom 5:17 For if by the offense of the one [man] death reigned through the one, much more the ones receiving the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness in life will reign through the one [Man], Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 So, consequently, as through one offense [judgment came] to all people [resulting] in condemnation, so also [the gift came] through one righteous deed to all people [resulting] in justification [or, declared righteousness] of life. Rom 5:19 For even as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted [or, caused to be] sinners, so also through the obedience of the one [Man], the many will be constituted righteous."I don't think Paul could have put it in any more words. Because of one man's sin, all are punished; not for our own individual sins, but it says clearly for HIS sin. I find there is a lot of talk about fairness, etc... but is it fair that everyone should be punished for one man's sin? A sin we did not commit? This would be the case if you are correct in saying we are born sinless. The fact is in Adam all have sinned. This is not unbiblical at all, as the example of Abraham and Levi has shown. Come now, we talk much about being IN CHRIST. How can we say this... if we are not willing to accept the extension of this, that IN ADAM we all became sinners. Let's take a look at the bold parts of the passage you are referring to Eli and break it down piece by piece.... So did everyone die or did many die? Is this referring to physical death or spiritual death? Notice also that it doesn't say that sin was passed on to anyone. It says death...as has already been mentioned by many people in this thread. What kind of judgment and condemnation are we talking about here? Is it condemnation to Hell or condemnation to physical deaeth? Once again, where does it say that's Adam's "sin" or "guilt" is passed to us? Again, which kind of death is this talking about? And again, it doesn't same that Adam's sin or guilt was passed on to us...just death. As has already been pointed out several times about this verse...if you really apply the "all" universally to the first part of this Scripture, then you have to apply it to the last part of this Scripture...and that leads to: Universalism. The only person on this board that would agree with that, that I know of, is dmatic. Even If It Did apply universally, what kind of judgment and condemnation is it referring to? Death or Hell? OR the NKJV says: Again, there is the word "many." So do only certain people have a "sinful nature" then? If so, who are those who don't have one? For those who do believe we have a sinful nature, shouldn't the first part of this verse say "all" instead of many? We need to be careful to read the Scripture as it is and not read into it. I am trying my best to do the same. I have been taught my entire Christian life (10 years) that we sin because we are sinners. Now, I am stepping into the shoes of the other side (we are sinners because we sin) to see if it is Scriptural. So far, I am finding it to be more Scriptural...although I am still having a hard time with it...
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 15:19:30 GMT -5
I want to make it clear that I am not arguing for what is normally understood as Original Sin; ie. babies go to hell. Not so at all. Neither am I arguing for complete innocence at birth. I have in mind a middle ground, which shows that the punishment of Adam's sin (death) passes upon all men because all sinned IN Adam. Does this mean infants go to hell? No, but it does mean infants die, and is in fact the only explanation. The picture of our salvation in Christ is a reflection upon our condemnation in Adam.
So as we continue in this discussion, please understand I am not arguing for the traditional Calvinistic version of Original Sin. But I see a great flaw in saying all are born sinless.
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 15:32:42 GMT -5
Kerrigan, we are not too far off from each other.
Death, physical death, passed upon all men because Adam sinned. The reason is because "all have sinned" (5:12) We cannot interpret this to mean you will not die until you have sinned... otherwise infants should not die. All have sinned means all have sinned IN Adam, even people not yet born. That "all" includes "all", the children that will be born in 2008.
If you disagree with this you actually contradict all those Scriptures that you posted about each bearing their own sin. Why would God punish all men for a sin one man committed? Is this what you believe? Are you going to die because Adam sinned c. 6000 years ago? Or did YOU sin IN Adam that fateful day, like Levi payed the tax in his great-great grandfather?
If you say that everyone pays for their own sin but they did NOT sin in Adam, then people should not die until they are able to consciously transgress the law. This is not the case. "All have sinned" (past tense) in Adam, and that all includes those not yet born. It's Adam's seed, of which Christ could not have, and did not, come.
Romans 5 is talking about physical death, not hell. Both Christians and non-Christians alike die physically because we are born of Adam, and all sinned in Adam.
No, the universal argument here is flawed as well. As many as are IN Adam die. As many as are IN Christ live. Not all are in Christ.
"But not as the offense, so also is the free gift." (5:15)
"And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift." (5:16)
Scripture says ALL have sinned, but it does not say ALL have repented, put their faith in Jesus Christ and been made righteous. By faith are you made the seed of Christ. By flesh you are of the seed of Adam.
"For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive[/u] abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."[/i] (Romans 5:17)
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 15:42:44 GMT -5
If you say that everyone pays for their own sin but they did NOT sin in Adam, then people should not die until they are able to consciously transgress the law.
This is what I believe presently.
This is not the case. "All have sinned" (past tense) in Adam, and that all includes those not yet born. It's Adam's seed, of which Christ could not have, and did not, come.
Romans 9 tells us that Jacob and Esau did NOT sin before birth (having done neither good or evil), hence making your past tense argument flawed.
I'm still not seeing where it says sin passed to all men.
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 15:50:57 GMT -5
Dan,
Your misunderstanding me. Nowhere does it say "sin" passed upon all men. It's "death" that passed upon all men, because ALL have sinned.
Sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:13). Meaning, a little child will not go to hell, because he has no law, therefore sin is not passed upon him. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression... (against the law)"(Romans 5:14)
Nevertheless, infants die, because in Adam ALL sinned and so death (physical death as the punishment of Adam's sin) passed upon all men... so infants die, even though "sin" is not imputed where there is no law.
When a child reaches the age to consciously sin against the law, sin then is imputed, and then hell becomes the destiny of the child. There is a difference between death and hell (Revelation 1:18, 6:8, 20:13-14) Death passes upon all men for all have sinned in Adam, but sin is not imputed until there is a law to be applied.
Interesting eh?
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2007 15:56:05 GMT -5
Brother Eli...we are in agreement as far as I can tell...sorry for the misunderstanding...
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 16:10:32 GMT -5
Dan, Your misunderstanding me. Nowhere does it say "sin" passed upon all men. It's "death" that passed upon all men, because ALL have sinned. Sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:13). Meaning, a little child will not go to hell, because he has no law, therefore sin is not passed upon him. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression... (against the law)"(Romans 5:14) Nevertheless, infants die, because in Adam ALL sinned and so death (physical death as the punishment of Adam's sin) passed upon all men... so infants die, even though "sin" is not imputed where there is no law. When a child reaches the age to consciously sin against the law, sin then is imputed, and then hell becomes the destiny of the child. There is a difference between death and hell (Revelation 1:18, 6:8, 20:13-14) Death passes upon all men for all have sinned in Adam, but sin is not imputed until there is a law to be applied. Interesting eh? Yes, I misunderstood, dear Brother. I believe the same. Amen. Sorry for the misunderstanding also, as revK is haha Love you, brother! We're praying for your Revival Conference with Greg!
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 24, 2007 16:27:27 GMT -5
Thanks brothers. God bless you both.
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Post by evanandliz on Aug 24, 2007 23:49:18 GMT -5
I want to make it clear that I am not arguing for what is normally understood as Original Sin; ie. babies go to hell. Not so at all. Neither am I arguing for complete innocence at birth. I have in mind a middle ground, which shows that the punishment of Adam's sin (death) passes upon all men because all sinned IN Adam. Does this mean infants go to hell? No, but it does mean infants die, and is in fact the only explanation. The picture of our salvation in Christ is a reflection upon our condemnation in Adam. So as we continue in this discussion, please understand I am not arguing for the traditional Calvinistic version of Original Sin. But I see a great flaw in saying all are born sinless. AMEN dear brother. The very fact that an infant is subject to death is proof enough when examining the scriptures at hand. Salvation is primarily a change of the federal head from Adam to the Lord from heaven - the last Adam, Jesus Christ. Adam is the head of unregenerate man, Jesus is the head of regenerate man, or in more biblical terminology, the head of the church. Just a thought. I look forward to seeing you monday Eli, and I have news from Ben Israel that will be quite intriguing I think as I have been in contact with brother Reggie alot. Yours in service to Jesus Christ, Evan
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 25, 2007 12:54:47 GMT -5
I'll try to get more involved in this topic. I really want to... I am just busy right now. Maybe next week I'll be able to.. Good to see you on the board Eli. This is a very important topic since what you believe on this directly influences what you believe about regeneration.
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Post by ebrayley on Aug 25, 2007 14:30:21 GMT -5
Hey Josh, good to see you too brother.
I thought I'd just add this card to the table... I believe this Scripture throws the scale towards the IN ADAM understanding completely:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22)
There it is written in the Word of God.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 25, 2007 15:58:39 GMT -5
I'll try to get more involved in this topic. I really want to... I am just busy right now. Maybe next week I'll be able to.. Good to see you on the board Eli. This is a very important topic since what you believe on this directly influences what you believe about regeneration. Would love to hear your perspective brother...
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 25, 2007 15:59:19 GMT -5
Hey Josh, good to see you too brother. I thought I'd just add this card to the table... I believe this Scripture throws the scale towards the IN ADAM understanding completely: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) There it is written in the Word of God. Eli, here is what Jesse said about this verse on the first page of this thread: I agree...
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