|
Post by ebrayley on Aug 25, 2007 17:08:39 GMT -5
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Yeah, Jesse and I both agree on that, but I think the conclusions we would come to are different.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrigan on Aug 25, 2007 17:35:36 GMT -5
What conclusion do you come to Brother Eli?
|
|
|
Post by ebrayley on Aug 25, 2007 19:00:15 GMT -5
Just what I've been saying all along. I don't think Jesse's view would coincide, even though we both agree the topic at hand is physical death. I believe that babies are not born guiltless, because they are in the first Adam, under his "headship". However, their guilt is not imputed unto them until the law is applied (Romans 5:13), until they are consciously able to apprehend and sin against the law.
|
|
|
Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 25, 2007 19:15:19 GMT -5
Just what I've been saying all along. I don't think Jesse's view would coincide, even though we both agree the topic at hand is physical death. I believe that babies are not born guiltless, because they are in the first Adam, under his "headship". However, their guilt is not imputed unto them until the law is applied (Romans 5:13), until they are consciously able to apprehend and sin against the law. If babies aren't guiltless then they can only be guilty. My question would be, "What are they guilty of?"
|
|
|
Post by ebrayley on Aug 25, 2007 20:42:44 GMT -5
"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9)
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)
All babies are carnal, sold under sin. It's their lot in life. It's what we are all born into because we come from a fallen man: Adam. All of us have come from the loins of Adam, a man who sinned against God. From then on all men from Adam are seen as sinners in the eyes of God, for all of us fell there that day; man's image was marred. Therefore we have been born carnal, sold under sin. Sin already has bought us, so to speak, but has not yet claimed us, until the law can be applied to the individual. The strength of sin is the law. It's in the baby... everybody knows that... but it has no strength until the law comes.
|
|
|
Post by prespilot68 on Aug 25, 2007 23:03:05 GMT -5
Hey folks. I am new to the forum but I would like to provide some resources to this discussion. I would first add that NO where in Judaism does the theology of "Original Sin" or Total Depravity is ever found. This theology is based upon Greek/Pagan Philosophy by which Augustine was heavily influenced by. The Ante-Nicene (Early Church Fathers) never speak of sin as being something physical or that could be passed to our children, but that it was a moral choice. I would recommend reading Clement of Alexandria to get a feel of how early church fathers really felt about sin. Between 70AD to about 350AD we see no existence of either OS or TD. If I could I would recommend two readings on this subject matter: Are men Born Sinners? By Alfred (Tom) Overstreet www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htmand here is a paper from a friend of mine that I think shows hermeneutically that Original Sin and Total Depravity is NOT sound biblical theology. web.mac.com/prespilot68/iWeb/The%20Nesselrotte%27s/Preston%27s%20Blog/Preston's %20Blog_files/Original%20Sin.pdf
|
|
|
Post by ebrayley on Aug 25, 2007 23:16:42 GMT -5
I agree that Greek and Gnostic thought has influenced the Church, especially in the realm of spirit, flesh, death and resurrection.
I don't think, so far, that anyone is arguing that sin passes from person to person like some physical disease.
God bless, -Eli
|
|
|
Post by prespilot68 on Aug 25, 2007 23:38:34 GMT -5
"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9) "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14) All babies are carnal, sold under sin. It's their lot in life. It's what we are all born into because we come from a fallen man: Adam. All of us have come from the loins of Adam, a man who sinned against God. From then on all men from Adam are seen as sinners in the eyes of God, for all of us fell there that day; man's image was marred. Therefore we have been born carnal, sold under sin. Sin already has bought us, so to speak, but has not yet claimed us, until the law can be applied to the individual. The strength of sin is the law. It's in the baby... everybody knows that... but it has no strength until the law comes. Eli - I would ask you to support your above statement biblically (please use sound hermeneutics when doing so). Also, I would also prefer you provide me with both Old Testament and New Testament proof texts. Do we EVER see Jesus making such proclamtion? How then do you harmonize a statement by Jesus such as this: Matt 18: 2-6 Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, 3and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me: 6But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea. Based upon your above statement is Jesus is saying we are to be a little carnal sin filled beings?? Instead i think this shows that children are innocent and that if we cause or introduce them to sin we will pay a great price.
|
|
|
Post by ebrayley on Aug 25, 2007 23:41:43 GMT -5
Yup, babies are innocent. Nobodies arguing that.
|
|
|
Post by prespilot68 on Aug 26, 2007 8:40:00 GMT -5
"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9) "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14) All babies are carnal, sold under sin. It's their lot in life. It's what we are all born into because we come from a fallen man: Adam. All of us have come from the loins of Adam, a man who sinned against God. From then on all men from Adam are seen as sinners in the eyes of God, for all of us fell there that day; man's image was marred. Therefore we have been born carnal, sold under sin. Sin already has bought us, so to speak, but has not yet claimed us, until the law can be applied to the individual. The strength of sin is the law. It's in the baby... everybody knows that... but it has no strength until the law comes. Eli - I am still confused by your quote here. On one hand it seems your still holding onto the concept or doctrine of original sin. In other words, it seems your saying we can't help but sin and that yet while we are babies God see us as sinners?? Again, where is this ever in scripture? Its "in" the baby?? Again, it seems your saying sin is a "thing" not a moral choice. You need to support these concepts with scripture. A better explanation would be that man has a physical proclivity for certain desires. These desires are very strong, but they are by no means wrong to have them when used as God has commanded them to used. However, since the fall of man, people have decidedly to allow these desires to control them rather than the other way around. As a result, we now have a Romans 1:24-32 type situation. Notice Paul says that they gave themselves over to the desires of their heart (not nature or flesh) - this was a moral choice of their will. He goes on to say that they have taken the "natural" (God given desires) and made them "unnatural". How? Because they have willfully traded truth for a lie! My kids are not somehow preprogrammed to sin - as sin is not a "thing". But rather when they do sin they have taken a natural desire and allowed that desire to get out of control, because they will have decided that the desire is more important than the truths of God (of which all of mankind have placed in their hearts by God - ie. natural law Romans 2:14-15). It also helps to know how I define sin as: The willful disobedience against God's known laws. (The Law here being both Natural Law and God Moral Law). For me the commandments are essentially to help magnify or bring closer to our minds that by which we already know in our hearts to be right and true.
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 9:25:45 GMT -5
Babies are accountable for sin from the moment of birth according to this verse: Romans 1:20 (King James Version) 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: The Godhead is in the parents. They know as soon as they are born that their is an authority structure and they have the ability to buck the system if they so choose. They know their are great big hands holding them and they may not like their little lot so they cry. It sounds cute and innocent but it is their way of saying I want to be in charge and call the shots.
Their were two trees in the garden. We can choose life or the tree of knowledge and try and be our own god. We are taught this from the moment of conception.
I believe differently from just about everyone else on this board. I believe God knows those who will choose Him. Its not predetermination, it's predestination. Were a book already read by God. He knew us the bible says before the foundation of the world. Life is like a movie, it's prophetic and must be fulfilled.
|
|
|
Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 26, 2007 12:42:36 GMT -5
Yup, babies are innocent. Nobodies arguing that. Here you say babies are born innocent but earlier you said, "I believe that babies are not born guiltless" If one is not guiltless, then one is guilty, hence I'm not understanding how you can say babies are innocent yet not guiltless at the same time. Could you explain this, Brother Eli? I sincerely want to know your reasoning on this point. May the Lord continue blessing your life and Ministry, Eli.
|
|
|
Post by ebrayley on Aug 26, 2007 15:41:05 GMT -5
The view that I am taking actually runs up the middle of the two extremes. I do not say babies are born totally sinless, neither do I say babies are born totally guilty. I'm having a hard time explaining myself, I realize that.
Every one of us come from Adam, a fallen man. Just as by faith we become new in Christ, by flesh we are all in Adam. Adam sinned, and from him have we all come. We all "have sinned" in Adam, because though we were not yet born, we were "in his loins" when he sinned. Abraham payed a tithe to Melchizedek before Levi was born, but it says Levi payed the tithe in Abraham because he was in his loins. None of us actually committed the sin in the Garden, Adam did, but we were IN Adam when he did it. We come from Adam. We are all "sons of Adam" and therefore share in the sin of our father. None of us were righteous, but IN Christ we are made righteous because of what He did, and we are in Him.
If every baby is born totally disconnected from the sin of Adam, then in a sense it's the Garden of Eden all over again for every single individual until they sin in their youth. This is not Scriptural. There is not a billion falls... there was one fall of man, and it happened a long time ago, and we all share a part in it. All of mankind proved to God that day that we are sinful, we could not keep His commands, we are rebellious and deserve to die. This is why God says "there is none righteous, no not one." God sees all men, even those not yet born, when He declares that. God is not hoping that some day a baby will be born that will obey... no, all "have sinned" and we are all sentenced to die as the punishment for sin. "From dust you are and to dust you shall return" was declared upon ALL men, not just to Adam, but to every man that was in his loins did God declare it. That sentence was passed upon all that day, and that is why all die, even babies, because all have sinned, and share in the sin of Adam, for we were in Adam, the head of all men since then.
This is why Jesus had to have been born of a virgin, not of Adam. He is the second Adam. Christ was totally sinless. We must not ever compare a baby to the sinlessness of Christ, or else could a baby atone for sin? Never! A baby is not totally sinless. Only Christ was sinless. I believe it entirely false to say babies are sinless.
Now what shall we say then, do babies go to hell? This is not the conclusion Romans 5 gives us. Because we all were in Adam's loins, DEATH passed upon all men. Babies die. But Romans 5:13 says that where there is no law sin is not imputed... nevertheless... Babies do not know the Law, therefore sin is not imputed to them, meaning, they are innocent of sinning against the Law and do not go to hell if they die. Only where there is law is sin imputed. Scripture says "nevertheless" because even though sin is not imputed to them, babies still die because the sentence of DEATH was passed upon ALL men IN Adam. We die because we are of Adam and dust is the destiny of every man, Christian or not. But what of after death? The resurrection? The judgment seat? Do we go to hell because of Adam? No.
Adam will pay for his own sin, and you and I will pay for our own. Babies have no law therefore have no sin to be judged for, but being IN Adam they will still suffer death.
Think about it: As Christians, we have been forgiven of all our sin... so why do Christians die? Shouldn't Christians live forever because they have no sin therefore there's no cause for death? Though we are forgiven and the law that was against us is removed, we still die because we, by the flesh, are of Adam. Plain and simple. I don't see how anyone can deny that because Adam sinned and we are of Adam we all die.
Honestly, I really don't think I am believing something too different than what some of you believe. You may say we inherit corruption from Adam. I say Amen, we do... the question is why? My answer is because we all were in Adam when he sinned, the representative and head of mankind. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) Otherwise, death is some physical thing that passed upon all men unfairly. We all have to pay for something none of us had anything to do with, and God is not right in saying we are all not righteous, and sinners... Come on God, give us each a chance to prove ourselves... let's try the Garden of Eden again and again and again in each person... maybe some kid in 2010 will be obedient!
This is not how it works. We all fell, we all sinned, we all were marred that day when Adam sinned because we were all in his loins.
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 19:33:41 GMT -5
There are no grey areas with God. God is holy. Im not quite sure what your trying to say here. If a baby cries because they are unhappy is that sin?
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 20:05:45 GMT -5
I believe Jesus was a perfect child in every way. He knew no sin.
Luke 2:39-52 (King James Version)
39And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
40And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
|
|
|
Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 26, 2007 20:08:12 GMT -5
Rebecca, you and everyone here believes that Christ was perfect and sinless in every way.
What are you getting at?
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 20:14:19 GMT -5
I wasn't impying anything but Jesus was the second Adam. Babies are born in sin is the point I am trying to make. Just because they are a baby does not make them innocent. Jesus was a perfect baby.
|
|
|
Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 26, 2007 20:24:30 GMT -5
I wasn't impying anything but Jesus was the second Adam. Babies are born in sin is the point I am trying to make. Just because they are a baby does not make them innocent. Jesus was a perfect baby. You did well to say that Jesus was sinless but you gave absolutely no Scriptures to show where babies are born in sin. Can you provide several Scriptures saying babies are born in sin? Yes, we are all born with the results of sin (death and judgment; Romans 5) but can you show where we are born in sin?
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 20:26:34 GMT -5
I did in my previous post:
Romans 1:20 (King James Version) 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 20:28:56 GMT -5
I don't believe like Finney does that babies are morally neutral because thier are no grey areas. Morally neutral or not is not the issue. The issue is can a baby sin at birth? One sin = corruption.
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 20:44:10 GMT -5
What is morally neutral? If you are morally neutral than you could also be neutral to evil. Im surprised that Finney made that statement. Am I misunderstanding him?
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 20:54:50 GMT -5
The reason I believe some christians do not want to accept the fact that babies can sin at birth is because if they die at birth or in the womb than they think that means they are going to hell.
Why is it that christians cannot accept predestination? God even told men when and where they would be buried. Joseph was told he would be a king and his family would bow down to him.
People are hung up on whether or not a baby is going to end up in hell before they hear the gosple.
King David prophesied he would go to his son even though his son could not go to him. There is a good example of a baby that went to heaven. Im not sure if this is the hang up but it seems that way, maybe I am wrong.
|
|
|
Post by bullhornbob on Aug 26, 2007 21:01:40 GMT -5
I have been away for quite some time. The wife and I are currently working the campuses in Kentucky, and soon Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia, the Lord willing.
I am very perplexed at how many people (not all, I might add) believe what others teach out of personal opinion, instead of allowing the Spirit of Truth to teach them through personal prayer and Bible study.
I believe the Spirit showed me these verses about a week or two ago, and I will share them here:
I John 1:5 says "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
John 1:9 says "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
Another critical verse:
Matthew 18:3 says "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
The banned tree in the garden of Eden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not the tree of sin.
Death was pronounced as a curse on Adam, not sin.
May the Spirit of Truth teach us all, as we fervently seek and obey the Lord Jesus Christ for all of the will of the Father.
I hope this helps, revk.
Please pray for us!
|
|
|
Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 26, 2007 21:14:16 GMT -5
I did in my previous post: Romans 1:20 (King James Version) 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:umm.... how do you suppose romans 1 speaks of babies being born in sin? Romans 1 speaks of those who fall away and the results (homosexuality, etc etc). You've literally pulled a text of Scripture out of it's original context and applied it to a topic which Romans 1 doesn't even speak of. Not only that, but the verse itself doesn't even hint at being born in sin. I don't mean to come across as though I were attacking you, so please don't take offense, yet I must wonder where you learned Biblical Interpretive methods, because man nor the Holy Spirit gave you this type of understanding concerning the Scripture in this particular topic. Your use of one verse taken completely out of context only reinforces my case that babies are not born in sin. So far, you've given us nothing here to ponder on.
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 21:33:09 GMT -5
I will give you more scripture but as for this verse it seems clear to me:
Romans 1:20 (King James Version) 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood...
by the things that are made,---(babies are made)
even his eternal power and Godhead;---(the headship of the parents is established God given authority)
so that they are without excuse:
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 21:41:20 GMT -5
This is an example of the Godhead:
Romans 13 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Parents are a power ordained of God. This is an authority structure. Women submit to their husbands as unto Christ.
Submission is an example of headship! When you do not submit to the authority placed over you than you are not submitting to God.Babies need to submit to thier parents.
My question again is when babies cry is that sin or not?
|
|
|
Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 26, 2007 22:19:54 GMT -5
Is it a sin when a baby cries?
Are you so blinded by devils that you would say such a cry is sin?
Have devils so closed your understanding to the Scriptures that you would wickedly teach that when a baby cries it is sin?
Please tell me you are not implying nor saying that when a baby cries it is a sin lest you be found to be blinded by devils for such a thought!
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 22:41:59 GMT -5
If a baby cries it is sin. Why do you have such a problem with that? It's a sin nature. Judge not lest you be judged. Don't judge me, judge what I say.
Furthermore, here's the scripture you asked for:
Psalm 58:3 (King James Version) 3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Isaiah 48:8 (King James Version) 8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Hosea 9:11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.
Hosea 9:16-17 (King James Version)
16Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
17My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.
|
|
|
Post by runner4jesus on Aug 26, 2007 22:43:58 GMT -5
Young man (Dan) I don't believe the Holy Ghost would have you speak in such a manner to a sister in Christ. You are out of line in your speech. You need to humble yourself before the Lord and repent. This is not love of the brethren.
|
|
|
Post by rebecca on Aug 26, 2007 22:45:42 GMT -5
Im done for now, goodnight!
|
|