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Post by rebecca on Aug 28, 2007 18:42:10 GMT -5
Josh Nevermind! On a side note I think the key here is whether or not you believe in predestination. If not than you are forced to conclude babies are going to hell if they do not recieve the gosple, or that they are just plain innocent. I believe in predestination...
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 18:53:32 GMT -5
Jesse, two questions:
Why do you suppose that Jesus Christ, the Sinless Son Of God, was born without a human father?
Why was Jesus born of a Virgin, in your view?
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 19:32:51 GMT -5
Jesse, two questions: Why do you suppose that Jesus Christ, the Sinless Son Of God, was born without a human father? Why was Jesus born of a Virgin, in your view? Hey Dan...I think Jesse answered your question in his last post:
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 19:35:11 GMT -5
Jesse, we've never heard such unbiblical teaching in all our days as Christians (35 years). You are teaching FALSELY to those who are following you. It's sad to hear. Your concept of Jesus, and your explanation of why he is without sin, and why babies are born without sin is perverted. We pray you will come to the true knowledge of the TRUTH of the gospel. runners4jesus, there you go with the labeling again. If you think Jesse is wrong, then prove him wrong WITH SCRIPTURE. Show us from Scripture WHY Jesus was born of a virgin. I can't think of one verse that tells us exactly why...definitely can't think of one that says He was born of a virgin so Adam's sinful nature wouldn't be passed on to him through the sperm of men. If you have one then please share with everyone. Otherwise, please stop accusing everyone of false teaching without having some Scripture to back it up...
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 19:50:42 GMT -5
Runner4Jesus, I would have to agree with RevK in asking you for Scripture on why Jesus was Born of a Virgin.
We all understand and believe He was (because He was), but you shoul dbe able to tell us why, with Scripture, He was Born of a Virgin before claiming Jesse is preaching false doctrine.
Blessings sister in Christ,
Dan
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 20:27:17 GMT -5
Mary who was born in sin, in Adam as we are was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:26-35 v.31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. v.32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: v.35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Mary was a vessel chosen by God to be used of him. She was as we are in Adam and born in sin. After the birth of Jesus Mary had other children by Joseph. When Mary gave birth to Jesus she was a virgin. JESUS WAS BORN WITHOUT SIN BECAUSE HE IS GOD. GOD HAS NO SIN.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 20:37:01 GMT -5
runner4jesus, no one is saying that Jesus is born in sin. The thing we are disputing that you are saying is that WE are Born in Sin as you say from the Scriptures. Also, not how, but why was Jesus Born of a Virgin. That Scriptures states that He was Born of a Virgin and conceived by the Holy Ghost...not WHY...
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 21:47:29 GMT -5
Revk: This should answer your question of why Jesus was born of a virgin. Found in Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Immanuel means GOD WITH US. The birth of Jesus of a virgin was fulfillment of prophecy. This is the reason he came this way to fulfill scripture. Matthew 1:23 was the fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:24-25 shows Mary did not remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife. ( Mary remained a virgin at this time.) v.25 And knew (sexually) that's what the word knew means. And knew her NOT till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. As my husband said, if this does not answer your question, nothing else will. Have a blessed evening.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 21:55:12 GMT -5
The very reason, as Runner4Jesus said, using Scripture, that Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, is because He is God in the flesh; hence it was not even possible for Him to have had an earthly Father, as He had and has only One Father, the Lord God Almighty.
The Virgin Birth shows that Jesus Christ is in fact God Almighty, without natural conception, but had His conception of and by the Holy Spirit.
Oh Jesus, thank You so much for being our God and Lord and Saviour!
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 21:58:21 GMT -5
As I posted the above, I was immediately given insight on Eli's previous post about being being born dead because we are "in Adam".
Yes, and Amen! We are born dead "in Adam!"
The birth of Jesus Christ was NOT the same as our's!
The birth of Jesus Christ was unique because He was born "in the Father", conceived by the Holy Spirit!
We are born "in Adam" while Jesus Christ was born "in God".
I see the difference!
Those who are Born Again are now "in Christ" who is "in God"! This is why we are now alive while we were once dead "in Adam"!
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 22:05:57 GMT -5
Dan: PRAISE GOD!!! PRAISE GOD!!! The Holy Ghost showed you all this. He is faithful. He said he would lead us into all truth... Thank you Jesus!! We give you all the praise, the honour and glory for what you have done.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:12:22 GMT -5
1. What is sin that we are born with it?
Is sin a gas, solid, or a liquid? Is it a physical substance or a spiritual substance?
If sin is not a voluntary choice to violate known law, what is sin?
2. What is a sinner that one can be born one?
Is a sinner is not one who merely chooses to be one, what is he?
- A sinner is someone who sins
- Sin is transgression of the law
If babies have not yet transgressed the law, according to the Bible (Romans 9:11) how then can they be sinners? How can someone be a sinner before even making any choices?
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:16:16 GMT -5
1. What is sin that we are born with it? Is sin a gas, solid, or a liquid? Is it a physical substance or a spiritual substance? If sin is not a voluntary choice to violate known law, what is sin? 2. What is a sinner that one can be born one? Is a sinner is not one who merely chooses to be one, what is he? - A sinner is someone who sins - Sin is transgression of the law If babies have not yet transgressed the law, according to the Bible (Romans 9:11) how then can they be sinners? How can someone be a sinner before even making any choices? We're not born "with" sin... we're born "in Adam".
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:18:01 GMT -5
Jesse Said: If babies have not yet transgressed the law, according to the Bible (Romans 9:11) how then can they be sinners? How can someone be a sinner before even making any choices? As I read this, I was given an insight which I will turn into a question:
If Christ never transgressed the law, according to the Bible how then could He have been made sin for us?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:19:01 GMT -5
Yes, because we are in Adam we inherit physical depravity. We inherit a proneness or bias towards sin, but not sin itself. We are not sinners because we were in Adams loins (his sperm) but we are physically fallen because we are in the physical hereditary race of Adam.
But sin is our own freewill choice. Those "in Adam" choose of their own freewill to follow after Adam's example.
Nobody is born a homosexual! Nobody is born a fornicator! Nobody is born a liar! Nobody is born a sinner! Every sinner is a sinner BY CHOICE not BIRTH!
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Post by prespilot68 on Aug 28, 2007 22:19:16 GMT -5
As I posted the above, I was immediately given insight on Eli's previous post about being being born dead because we are "in Adam". Yes, and Amen! We are born dead "in Adam!" The birth of Jesus Christ was NOT the same as our's! The birth of Jesus Christ was unique because He was born "in the Father", conceived by the Holy Spirit! We are born "in Adam" while Jesus Christ was born "in God". I see the difference! Those who are Born Again are now "in Christ" who is "in God"! This is why we are now alive while we were once dead "in Adam"! John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Dan Based upon this comment, then how do you harmonize the verses I quoted earlier in this thread regarding that Jesus was fully human (Hebrews 2:14-17, Phil 2:7). I would be interested in seeing how you handle these scriptures.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:20:01 GMT -5
Dan, in the greek the word "sin" in reference to Christ being made sin is translated in other passages elsewhere in the bible as "sin offering".
Sin is not some stuff. Sin is a freewill choice. Jesus was not made some sin stuff. But Jesus was made an offering for our sin.
Martin Luther said that Jesus was made a homosexual, a liar, a thief, a fornicator, a blasphemer, etc. But the bible says Jesus died "the just for the unjust".
The moral character of Christ never changed. Christ remained sinless from start to finish. And because He was always sinless, He could be a sin offering. Though He never was a sinner, he was never made sin in Luthers sense. Rather, Christ was made a sin offering.
You cannot be made a sinner as in forced to be one, just as you cannot be forced to be a saint. It must be a voluntary choice of freewill if it has any moral character, if it is to be considered virtue or vice it must be a voluntary personal choice.
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Post by prespilot68 on Aug 28, 2007 22:20:45 GMT -5
Yes, because we are in Adam we inherit physical depravity. We inherit a proneness or bias towards sin, but not sin itself. We are not sinners because we were in Adams loins (his sperm) but we are physically fallen because we are in the physical hereditary race of Adam. But sin is our own freewill choice. Those "in Adam" choose of their own freewill to follow after Adam's example. Nobody is born a homosexual! Nobody is born a fornicator! Nobody is born a liar! Nobody is born a sinner! Every sinner is a sinner BY CHOICE not BIRTH! Jesse - God Bless you brother! You seem to have a good knowledge of God's word and please take heart!
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:21:21 GMT -5
Again, prespilot, babies are not born "with" sin, they are born "in Adam".
Are you telling us Christ was also born in Adam?
Christ, according to Scripture, was born "In God".
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:23:13 GMT -5
Dan, in the greek the word "sin" in reference to Christ being made sin is translated in other passages elsewhere in the bible as "sin offering". Sin is not some stuff. Sin is a freewill choice. Jesus was not made some sin stuff. But Jesus was made an offering for our sin. Glad you know the original languages better than the Translators who should have translated it "your"way or the way of whatever lexicon suits your doctrine Anyhow, nonetheless, how could He have been made a sin offering without being a sinner?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:24:49 GMT -5
A drug baby is born the child of his parent. And is born with drug cravings, yet still has a freewill and can make it's own moral choices at the age of accountability.
We are born in Adam. We don't inherit Adams sin through semen. Ezekiel 18 says that pretty clearly that we are not under the guilt of our parents, i.e. not some "federal headship" doctrine. But we are born the children of Adam and have a fallen body.
Christ never sinned, yet Christ was still subjected to death. How does that work in to everyones theology?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:26:33 GMT -5
Are you saying Christ was made a sinner?
If Christ was made a sinner, HE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A SIN OFFERING
A sin offering must be spotless and sinless. Christ was a sin offering BECAUSE He was sinless, BECAUSE He was not a sinner.
Christ was never made a sinner. The bible doesn't teach that. The bible says that the moral condition of Christ at death was "just" and that He died the "just for the unjust". He did not die "a sinner for sinners".
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:28:11 GMT -5
PS: Jesus did become sin as Scripture says, regardless of how much you seek to "correct" the english version, translated by competent men learned in the originals, unlike you nor I.
Christ became sin, as Scripture says plainly, though He did not become a sinner.
Huge difference.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:31:02 GMT -5
Yes Jesus became sin. Not that Jesus became a sinner, but that Jesus became a sin offering.
Sin is a freewill choice to violate known law. "Sin is transgression of the Law". Jesus never transgressed the law. God did not force Christ to transgress the law. Jesus did not become a transgression of the law. But Jesus became sin, i.e. Jesus became a sin offering.
Albert Barnes, a much better bible scholar them I am, explains this very wel in his book on "The Atonement" - Leonard Ravenhills top pick out of 40 books.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:31:56 GMT -5
Are you saying Christ was made a sinner? If Christ was made a sinner, HE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A SIN OFFERING A sin offering must be spotless and sinless. Christ was a sin offering BECAUSE He was sinless, BECAUSE He was not a sinner. Christ was never made a sinner. The bible doesn't teach that. The bible says that the moral condition of Christ at death was "just" and that He died the "just for the unjust". He did not die "a sinner for sinners". No, I was asking you what yor thoughts were. he did, however, become sin, but not a sinn er. It's useless to try to show yourself as a Greek Theologian, trying to correct the Word of God. My Pastor was on a translation team in Albania and treads lightly when speaking of the originals... you should also, being unlearned in these matters, and I myself should never go into things I only read from others, unless I know it first hand. He became sin though he never once became a sinner: 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:34:17 GMT -5
Well, I'm off this thread for the evening... will read thread tomorrow and jump back in God bless you Jesse and Runner and all others here this evening!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:34:32 GMT -5
All I am saying is that the greek word for "made sin" is translated BY THE SAME TRANSLATERS in other passages as "sin offering". That is how the translaters themselves translate the same greek word.
Here is a question:
Are homosexuals born that way because of Adam?
If we are born a sinner, what kind of sinner are we born?
I believe we are born with a proneness to sin because of our physical fall caused by Adam. But I don't believe that we are born with any specific "sin" since sin is a choice to transgress the law.
And does it stop with Adam? Do I inherit the sin of all my fathers? And if not, why not?
If your parents sinned more then my parents, are you a worse sinner at birth then I was at birth?
Will I be held accountable on judgment day for the sins of my biological father? And will I only be accountable for the sins he committed before I was born. Will I be accountable for the sins he chooses to commit today?
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 22:37:30 GMT -5
All I am saying is that the greek word for "made sin" is translated BY THE SAME TRANSLATERS in other passages as "sin offering". That is how the translaters themselves translate the same greek word. Here is a question: Are homosexuals born that way because of Adam? If we are born a sinner, what kind of sinner are we born? I believe we are born with a proneness to sin because of our physical fall caused by Adam. But I don't believe that we are born with any specific "sin" since sin is a choice to transgress the law. Ok, last response: I also believe we are born with a proneness to sin because of the fall; we agree. And again, as we agree, it's "in Adam". Now, the part you need to show is where it says the Fall was Physical. The Fall was physical and spiritual and I'll post the Scriptures on it tomorrow, the Lord willing. God bless you, Brother.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 22:47:59 GMT -5
This chart lists all the scriptures I put together that reference physical depravity, moral depravity, and natural ability (freewill). It would be a well worth it bible study to look up each of these passages. Any TRUE doctrine must be able to stand the FULL COUNSEL of God!
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Post by prespilot68 on Aug 28, 2007 22:55:12 GMT -5
If I can add one other thing here. As I read this thread it seems many may or may not know what the true definition of Original Sin is. I see some are thinking total depravity and others have been on the mark when defining original sin. However, I think it might be a good idea we are all on same page as with regards to a definition.
Please understand that Original Sin, Sin Nature and Total Depravity are all inter-related. Interesting enough it seems several people on this thread believe in OS, but not Irresistible Grace. Funny thing is, OS in its historic definition has to be accompanied by the doctrine of Irresistible Grace. Strangely I hardly see anyone defending this doctrine on this thread (yet).
Again, I will state for the record Original Sin, Total Depravity and Sin Nature ALL originated from the Calvinist camp. No where in the Early Church nor in the history of Judaism is this doctrine ever supported - I think Revk covered that pretty thoroughly. So for those of you stating this is an OT doctrine your wrong. If OS did not come from the Patriarchs of the OT then why are we hanging on to theology that is neither supported or found in the roots of Christianity (Judaism)? I would suggest many are looking at these scripture through a theological filter and allow their presuppositions to influence their interpretation. Many are also not harmonizing scriptures that seem to contradict other so call proof texts. Keep in mind if we are going to debate theology here - lets make sure we harmonize the ENTIRE bible and NOT sword fight with scriptures please.
That being said please look at the following verse and I would be interested to see if this verse can or can not be used to deny Original Sin?
Ezekiel 18:1-4 The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: " 'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
BTW - Please read the entire 18th chapter before commenting.
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