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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 27, 2007 20:38:53 GMT -5
This thread is really far along. I almost don't even want to get involved, but early on I said I would. I'll just make a quick comment with a few scriptures following. I believe men are born with a propensity to sin- a sinful nature. This doesn't mean they are born guilty of sin but are born spiritually dead to God. I believe sinners sin because they have a spirit that works in them just like Eph. says they do, by nature they are children of wrath. In theory men could resist submitting to the sinful nature but since they are dead to God and carnal, they don't. Sorry I don't have time to write out a whole sermon on the issue. I did preach on it once, but I don't know if I have changed my thinking since then or not. If you want to listen go to www.covenantwordministries.com/joshdownloads.html and listen to Gospel Basics series. You can skip the one about the law- I don't think it references the topic. After regeneration, you do not have a sinful nature. This is where I am drastically different than most that believe in a form of original sin. You can sin, but now you have power to perform that which you know to do. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;) Children choose: Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
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Post by joem on Aug 27, 2007 20:43:53 GMT -5
This thread is really far along. I almost don't even want to get involved, but early on I said I would. I'll just make a quick comment with a few scriptures following. I believe men are born with a propensity to sin- a sinful nature. This doesn't mean they are born guilty of sin but are born spiritually dead to God. I believe sinners sin because they have a spirit that works in them just like Eph. says they do, by nature they are children of wrath. In theory men could resist submitting to the sinful nature but since they are dead to God and carnal, they don't. Sorry I don't have time to write out a whole sermon on the issue. I did preach on it once, but I don't know if I have changed my thinking since then or not. If you want to listen go to www.covenantwordministries.com/joshdownloads.html and listen to Gospel Basics series. You can skip the one about the law- I don't think it references the topic. After regeneration, you do not have a sinful nature. This is where I am drastically different than most that believe in a form of original sin. You can sin, but now you have power to perform that which you know to do. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;) Children choose: Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Well stated. You and I are pretty much in agreement, with some nuances being somewhat different. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 27, 2007 20:45:07 GMT -5
I like what Ravenhill said:
Nobody knows how God can become man, but how did he become sin? It doesn't say he became like sin, he became sin! If he became God incarnate, he became sin incarnate.
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Post by prespilot68 on Aug 27, 2007 21:50:45 GMT -5
Every one of us come from Adam, a fallen man. Just as by faith we become new in Christ, by flesh we are all in Adam. Adam sinned, and from him have we all come. We all "have sinned" in Adam, because though we were not yet born, we were "in his loins" when he sinned. Abraham payed a tithe to Melchizedek before Levi was born, but it says Levi payed the tithe in Abraham because he was in his loins. None of us actually committed the sin in the Garden, Adam did, but we were IN Adam when he did it. We come from Adam. We are all "sons of Adam" and therefore share in the sin of our father. None of us were righteous, but IN Christ we are made righteous because of what He did, and we are in Him. Eli - I must say your making a big stretch in doctrine based off a few scriptures you have taken out context. How in the world did you get sin is passed along from Adam to us because we were in "his loins" from a verse directed at Abraham and his offspring Levi! This verse is in regards to the Levite priesthood genealogy. Not some sin birth defect. Again, I would suggest using hermeneutics here and making sure we don't take verses out of context. The verse in Hebrews has nothing to do with Oringal Sin, but remember the context that this book is written to the Jews. The author is trying to make a point regarding the Levite Priesthood (Jews) and the Priesthood of Melchizdek (Christ).
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Post by prespilot68 on Aug 27, 2007 22:22:00 GMT -5
This thread is really far along. I almost don't even want to get involved, but early on I said I would. I'll just make a quick comment with a few scriptures following. I believe men are born with a propensity to sin- a sinful nature. This doesn't mean they are born guilty of sin but are born spiritually dead to God. I believe sinners sin because they have a spirit that works in them just like Eph. says they do, by nature they are children of wrath. In theory men could resist submitting to the sinful nature but since they are dead to God and carnal, they don't. Sorry I don't have time to write out a whole sermon on the issue. I did preach on it once, but I don't know if I have changed my thinking since then or not. If you want to listen go to www.covenantwordministries.com/joshdownloads.html and listen to Gospel Basics series. You can skip the one about the law- I don't think it references the topic. After regeneration, you do not have a sinful nature. This is where I am drastically different than most that believe in a form of original sin. You can sin, but now you have power to perform that which you know to do. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;) Children choose: Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
I really can not believe how many verses I am seeing taken out of context here and absolutely NO sound hermeneutics being used whatsoever - Josh the Romans 7 verses you are using use a common type of aramaic/greek speech whereby Paul commonly uses present tense on a past event to heightened the vividness of the point. Almost the entire chapter 7 is using this form of ancient writing. Also note the Eph 2:3 says ..."indulging the desires of the FLESH and MIND.." Here is something Original Sin proponents have yet to address on this thread - ask your self this, in Hebrews and many other verses it states that Jesus was human in EVERY respects: Heb 2:14 Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:17-18 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. Phil 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Therefore if Jesus was made just like every human being on the face of the earth - how did he avoid the "Original Sin" birth defect - By the way just a historic note here - this is where the church invent the Immaculate Conception of Mary. They had to invent a way that Jesus was twice removed from human descendant and therefore Mary too was conceived by the Holy Spirit. If we somehow deny that Jesus was not EXACTLY like you and me then you deny the sanctity of the atonement and you deny the humanness of Christ. I am not saying Jesus had inherited sin from Adam - but this proves my point that there is no such things as original sin!
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Post by rebecca on Aug 27, 2007 22:43:36 GMT -5
James 2:19 (King James Version)
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
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Post by rebecca on Aug 27, 2007 23:04:36 GMT -5
I have to answer this here. This is all wrong and takes from the sacrifice Jesus paid for us:
JOEM QUOTE:
"Had the king taken on the debt as his own so that the debt was no longer the servants to pay, he could not have later required the servant to pay his debt due to his wicked actions. He was forgiven, yet because of his later transgression, he was in debt for the full amount and the forgiveness was withdrawn. This is a good example of what I mean. Taking on the burden of the debt is different than becoming the debtor.
Grace and Peace, Joe"
Jesus did take on the debt as His own.God is holy and Jesus became sin. God turned his back on Jesus. Jesus was foresaken and the wrath that came on Jesus's physical body was the Fathers.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 27, 2007 23:06:29 GMT -5
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Post by rebecca on Aug 27, 2007 23:28:24 GMT -5
Josh, you greive me. Why would you respond to this man after all of that?
Some of you are confusing the subjection of the wife to the husband, with the women towards men in the church. The bible clearly says we are to be in subjection one toward another by being spirit led.
Women cannot “teach over” meaning TAKE AUTHORITY over men because they can be readily deceived. If I were able to teach over men meaning; be given God ordained authority, than as an authority ordained by God I could deceive you and carry weight in my deception at the same time.
We are simply having fellowship here--- that’s all, but because there are some men who are insecure they can not take it so they use these scriptures to cut off the female members of the body. Yet men will teach men and still abuse and demean each other. By not allowing women to fellowship all you are doing is lessoning the numbers.
I get grieved over the way some women talk to men just as I do the way some men talk to men. The only true shame for a Christian is not knowing the word of God. If a man or a woman is disrespectful it’s not shame on you it’s shame on them and everyone knows that!
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT: The men that do not want women to fellowship on the message board, is it because they are afraid of being corrected by a woman, even though she may be spirit led, or because they have not taken the time out to make sure what they are teaching is what the word of God says?
The bible says to first study to show yourself approved and than teach what you have learned. If you are going to throw something out on the board do you not think others are going to pick it apart be it a man or a woman?
Do you know the difference between fellowshipping, assembling, overseeing and teaching? Here we go again.You bring in a teaching having not studied and now it’s being picked apart before the world.
Throughout the bible, Jesus would teach by asking questions. Why? Because questions probe and they show the one teaching knows what they are talking about. They have studied and they are showing themselves approved. Rabbis taught their young male students by asking them questions with a question. It showed they knew what they were talking about. So if you do not want to be ashamed study to show yourselves approved. Don’t cut off the female part of the body.
I would love to be taught by someone who knows what they are talking about, who wouldn’t. If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn’t care what others said. Like I said, it’s not shame on you it’s shame on them. Learn how to hold your peace if you do not know the answer---herein is wisdom. The bible says it’s wise to hold your tongue, ponder and than speak, unless you don’t mind people picking it apart and you being corrected, hopefully by someone who is spirit led. Maybe you would be better off to get on this board and teach what you know, not what you are in the process of learning--- knowing your lack of understanding could cause contention and strife leaving the hearers frustrated.I am not speaking here of the one asking the question but the one trying to give the answer.
Proverbs 25:11 (King James Version) A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
The Lord gave me this and I humbly obey.
Rebecca~
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Post by joem on Aug 28, 2007 7:03:01 GMT -5
There seems to be much animosity over a comment I made to Dan, and the men on the board, stating that "I thank God for the ladies here and out of respect for them and their husbands, we should tread lightly", however I imagine it was the scripture that has caused the emotional response. As has been illustrated, often times emotions get out of hand, and it would be wise to remember that we when we are speaking to another mans wife. I do not want a man arguing with my wife for any reason, and out of respect for the husband and the wife, would not argue with another mans wife. If one of the guys here claim to be a 2 point Calvinist and goes on to debate with my wife trying to convince her that he is right and I am wrong, I would certainly take offense. In the same way, if the ladies here believe in Original Sin, we have no business arguing our position with someone else's wife, engaging them directly, over a non-essential doctrine. We can state our position without becoming argumentative, but to engage in a heated debate is unwise as comments can likely be taken out of context, exactly as has happened here in this thread. I blame Adam for the whole the mess Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 13:15:47 GMT -5
Here is something Original Sin proponents have yet to address on this thread - ask your self this, in Hebrews and many other verses it states that Jesus was human in EVERY respects: Heb 2:14 Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:17-18 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. Phil 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Therefore if Jesus was made just like every human being on the face of the earth - how did he avoid the "Original Sin" birth defect - By the way just a historic note here - this is where the church invent the Immaculate Conception of Mary. They had to invent a way that Jesus was twice removed from human descendant and therefore Mary too was conceived by the Holy Spirit. If we somehow deny that Jesus was not EXACTLY like you and me then you deny the sanctity of the atonement and you deny the humanness of Christ. I am not saying Jesus had inherited sin from Adam - but this proves my point that there is no such things as original sin! Actually, prespilot68, I mentioned those verses with the same questions you posed earlier in this thread. The questions I had concerning those verses never got answered. I added Hebrews 4:15, "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but was in ALL POINTS tempted AS WE ARE, yet without sin." And asked this question: If Christ was REALLY tempted in ALL POINTS, just AS WE ARE, and we are born with a Sinful Nature, then He had to of been born with a sinful nature too according to this Scripture, right? Later on, I posted the same Scriptures again and asked this question: If Christ was REALLY tempted in ALL POINTS, just AS WE ARE, and we are born with a Sinful Nature (and therefore born "sinners"), then He had to of been born with a sinful nature too according to this Scripture, right? If we are born with a sinful nature and are tempted by it to sin and Christ wasn't born with a sinful nature that tempted Him, then how was He tempted in ALL POINTS AS WE ARE? I just don't think I can reconcile this... I also posted what the Early Church Fathers believed in order to give the historical view. Here are some of their quotes: • Justin the Martyr of the Early Church said, “Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.” And “unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart) • Tertullian of the same century said, “No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61, published by Truth in Heart) • Origen said, “The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue could be ascribed to it; nor would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor its declination to vice punishment.” Again, “How could God require that of man which he [man] had not power to offer Him?” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62, published by Truth in Heart) • Augustine said, “They that would not come [to Christ], ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because, when they are called, it was in the power of their free will to come.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart) • Clement of Alexandria said, “Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63, published by Truth in Heart) • Jerome said, “God has bestowed us with free will. We are not necessarily drawn either to virtue or vice. For when necessity rules, there is no room left either for d**nation or the crown.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62, published by Truth in Heart) • Tertullian said, “In pursuance of that aspect of the association of body and soul that we now have to consider, we maintain that the puberty of the soul coincides with that of the body. Generally speaking, they both attain together this full growth at about the fourteenth year of life. The soul attains it by the suggestion of the senses, and the body attains it by the growth of the bodily members. I do not mention [the age of fourteen] because reflection begins at that age (as Asclepiades supposes). Nor do I choose it because the civil laws date the commencement of the real business of life from this age. Rather, I choose it because this was the appointed order from the very first. For after their obtaining knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve felt that they must cover their nakedness. Likewise, we profess to have the same discernment of good and evil from the time that we experience the same sensation of shame. Now, beginning with the aforementioned age, sex is suffused and clothed with a special sensibility. This eye gives way to lust and communicates its pleasure to another. It understands the natural relations between male and female, and it wears the fig-leaf apron to cover the shame that it still excites.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 7, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “The human race…from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent. Each one had committed personal transgression.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “The whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the Law of Moses, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the Law and do them.’ And no one has accurately done them all.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Irenaeus said, “By means of our first parents, we were all brought into bondage by being made subject to death.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Justin Martyr said, “I have proved in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Tatian said, “We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (c.160, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Melito said, “There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (c.170, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Theophilus said, “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Irenaeus said, “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Irenaeus said, “’Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (c.180, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Clement of Alexandria said, “We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Clement of Alexandria said, “Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Clement of Alexandria said, “To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.” (c.195, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287, published by Hendrickson Publishers) • Tertullian said, “I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (c.207, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 288, published by Hendrickson Publishers)
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Post by joem on Aug 28, 2007 14:00:28 GMT -5
I like what Ravenhill said: Nobody knows how God can become man, but how did he become sin? It doesn't say he became like sin, he became sin! If he became God incarnate, he became sin incarnate. Not to take anything away from Ravenhill's reflections, but God is a personal being and man is a personal being, but sin is a transgression. Sin is not a title, nor a material, nor a spirit, but a transgression. This leads us to believe that when Jesus "became sin who knew no sin", it means that Jesus took upon Himself sin in some shape, form or fashion other than becoming a literal transgression. He did not become a transgression/action, but took on the responsibility of others transgressions/actions. When a blood covenant was made between the patriarchs of two families in the OT, such as in the case of a wedding, the patriarchs would covenant with each other over the actions of the couple to be married. They would make a covenant that in essence offered their own lives as a guarantee for another's actions. They offered their own blood as a means of restitution if their child was to fail to meet his or her end of the deal. If the child failed to meet the requirements made in that covenant, the patriarch would pay for the sins of that child, not because he was guilty, but because he was bound by the covenant he made. God made such a covenant with Abraham (and all mankind), and kept it through Jesus, the mediator of the covenant. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 14:13:10 GMT -5
revk: Why can't you just believe what Jesus says in his Word and stop putting so much importance on, forgive me for saying so, some of the so-called church fathers. The word of God is clear and if you keep searching what these men say and not listen to what the Holy Ghost is saying plain & simple, you will never understand the mysteries of Christ in the gospel. He's the best teacher of his Word. Listen to this Word from,
Hebrews 3:7-11 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation (defiance), in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, (tested, tried) and saw my works forty years.
10. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err (swerve, go astray, commit error) in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest)
Please consider this Word of the Lord. Listen to the Holy Ghost through his word.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 14:13:19 GMT -5
Joem said: He did not become a transgression/action...
I couldn't have said it better myself!
A myriad of "Amen's!" to that!
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 14:21:10 GMT -5
Joem: As we are all in Adam we are all born in sin. This is not an "non-essential doctrine", as you have stated. This is a Tennant of our faith as a Christian. To dispute that we inherit Adam's sin from Romans 5 is not listening to what God's Word says, not who delivers it, men or woman. TRUTH IS TRUTH. TRUTH IS THE PERSON OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST... IT IS HE WHO WILL LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 15:07:49 GMT -5
revk: Why can't you just believe what Jesus says in his Word and stop putting so much important on forgive me for saying so, some of the so-called church fathers. The word of God is clear and if you keep searching what these men say and not listen to what the Holy Ghost is saying plain & simple, you will never understand the mysteries of Christ in the gospel. He's the best teacher of his Word. Listen to this Word from, Hebrews 3:7-11 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation (defiance), in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, (tested, tried) and saw my works forty years. 10. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err (swerve, go astray, commit error) in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest) Please consider this Word of the Lord. Listen to the Holy Ghost through his word. Excuse me, runners4jesus, who's to say I'm not listening to the Holy Ghost? Instead of saying that I am not listening to the Holy Ghost and saying over and over again that your interpretation of Romans 5 is right, why don't you take a look at the Scriptures that I presented and tell me why I am wrong. I do listen to the Holy Ghost and DO take the Scriptures for what they say. I would argue that you are NOT taking the Scriptures for what they say, but are allowing the doctrines of men to influence you. I don't take what the ECF's say as truth. I am showing that the doctrine of Original Sin (as you see it) is not Historical at all. This thread is about discussing what the Bible says about this doctrine. It isn't about saying over and over again..."My view is right...your's is wrong...why won't you listen to the Holy Spirit!" If your view is right, then prove it! Stop accusing people of not listening to the Holy Spirit or taking the Word of God for what it is because they don't agree with you...
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 15:12:08 GMT -5
Joem: As we are all in Adam we are all born in sin. This is not an "non-essential doctrine", as you have stated. This is a Tennant of our faith as a Christian. To dispute that we inherit Adam's sin from Romans 5 is not listening to what God's Word says, not who delivers it, men or woman. TRUTH IS TRUTH. TRUTH IS THE PERSON OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST... IT IS HE WHO WILL LEAD US INTO ALL TRUTH. I may be missing something here, but my understanding is that essential doctrines of the Faith must be held by all in order to be termed a Born Again Christian. Are you saying that those who do not believe in the version of Original Sin that you're presenting are not Christians? That makes Jesse Morrell, Joem, most likely myself and most on the Forum not Christians. Is this what you're saying or am I missing something? If that is not what you are saying, then the Doctrine of Original Sin you hold to is in fact not essential.
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 15:31:27 GMT -5
Revk: Hebrews 4:14-15 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast (firmly) our profession.
v. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.
What is it about YET WITHOUT SIN you don't understand. It's plain, Jesus was always without sin from birth to his resurrection.
Hebrews 7:25-26 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. JESUS IS INTERCEDING RIGHT NOW FOR US AS WE DECLARE HIS WORD.
V.26 For such an high priest became us, WHO IS HOLY, HARMLESS, UNDEFILED, SEPARATE FROM SINNERS, AND MADE HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS; v. 27-28 a must to read...
What I noticed of how you try to prove your point, you quote all the philosophers of the past, when the Word of God should take preeminence always. Scripture with scripture, not basing your stand on their teachings alone. Please brother consider the last verse, that's your answer altogether.
One note also Revk: In Adam, (that we are all born in sin) is not historical, it BIBLICAL.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 15:34:21 GMT -5
Runner4Jesus to RevK said: What I noticed of how you try to prove your point, you quote all the philosophers of the past, when the Word of God should take preeminence always. Scripture with scripture, not basing your stand on their teachings alone. Please brother consider the last verse, that's your answer altogether.
Sister, did you not twice in the same post tell all of us we should follow Eli Brayley's interpretation?
You've done nothing different than what you've politely rebuked RevK for.
This is a double standard, sister, and we must be on our guard against coming against what others do when we partake of the same.
Dan
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 15:37:53 GMT -5
No Dan: God is the judge of men's hearts. Not saying because you folks don't believe we were born in sin that you are not Christians. Not at all. As we are in Adam; is not non-essential. That's what God's Word says and because of stubbornness or pride, you won't accept what the bible is saying in Romans 5. That's between you folks and the Lord. Who are we to say what you have in your heart. We know what God's Word says about our sin that is inherited. It's up to each individual to accept what God's Word say or not. Only God!!!
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 15:43:34 GMT -5
Dan: You can choose to listen to Eli or not, that is your choice. Eli explained this whole thing of all in Adam very well. Eli is not a philosopher, he is a full of the Holy Ghost preacher of the Word of God. There's no comparison to this brother and the philosophers you folks are putting on a pedestal and comparing what the Word of God says and what they say. What Eli shared is TRUTH FROM THE WORD OF GOD, explaining those verses in a way you could understand.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 28, 2007 16:00:34 GMT -5
Dan: You can choose to listen to Eli or not, that is your choice. Eli explained this whole thing of all in Adam very well. Eli is not a philosopher, he is a full of the Holy Ghost preacher of the Word of God. There's no comparison to this brother and the philosophers you folks are putting on a pedestal and comparing what the Word of God says and what they say. What Eli shared is TRUTH FROM THE WORD OF GOD, explaining those verses in a way you could understand. Just as we can choose to accept Eli or anyone else's interpretations, so can RevK choose to accept the EFC's interpretations. As a matter of fact, I agree with Eli; what I did not agree with is you politely rebuking RevK's use of the EFC's while you use Eli's for your own purposes. That's a double standard. Blessings to you sister, as you seek to continue to walk in the Ways of God.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 16:21:18 GMT -5
runner4jesus, you are clearly NOT understanding what I am saying. I am NOT saying that I think Jesus Sinned! I thought that I clarified this last time we went through this whole issue. I am saying that IF Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS JUST AS WE ARE, then EITHER He had a sinful nature like us (which I don't think is true) OR we DON'T have a SINFUL NATURE. Hope that clarifies it. I have never and WILL NEVER say that Jesus has a sin nature or that He sinned! I don't see how we can reconcile the verses I listed any other way then to say that we are NOT born with a sin nature...
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 28, 2007 16:23:28 GMT -5
By the way, I have NOT put any "philosophers" on a pedestal! How is mentioning what the ECF's believe putting them on a pedestal? These men died for the faith and many were direct disciples of the Apostles or disciples of the disciples of the Apostles. You can't reasonably tell me that what they believed and agreed on for 250 years means nothing!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 17:22:42 GMT -5
I have not have much time for the board because I've been at a conference, which I'll continue to be at all week, but it looks like this topic has REALLY taken off.
I once did a bible study on the word "innocent" in the bible and was very interested as to how many times God calls babies innocent in the bible! In fact, God hated the hands that would shed innocent blood through baby sacrifice.
Because babies have never sinned - Romans 9:11 - babies are innocent until the age of accountability when they make their own moral choices. All sin is rebellion against known law. No one is guilty for anything but their own personal moral choices, when they both KNEW better and were in fact CAPABLE of better.
Contrary to the teaching of Augustine, babies are not born guilty neither do they deserve hell. Sin is not transmitted through semen! Moral character cannot be found in sperm. Moral character is derived entirely from freewill choices. Every moral agent determines their own moral character.
Sinners are sinners by choice. It is their own fault and their own doing. You cannot blame Adam for your freewill choices. You cannot blame nature for your freewill choices. You cannot blame the devil for your freewill choices. It is we ourselves that choose to good or evil, it is our own voluntary choice, all men have the power of contrary or alternative choice and that is why all are morall accountable for their actions.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 28, 2007 17:39:09 GMT -5
I'm going to just slide out of this conversation for the most part but I have a few questions.
Yes, I know. I think it's obvious that Romans 7 is before regeneration. Didn't you see that was my whole point? Make sure you are using proper hermeneutics when reading my post as well.
I also don't know what you are talking about. I guess I should have just ignored this thread altogether....
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 28, 2007 17:44:33 GMT -5
One more quick note and I'll just leave this thread. It's way out of hand.
If we somehow deny that Jesus was not EXACTLY divine then you deny the sanctity of regeneration (partakers of the divine nature) and you deny the deity of Christ.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 28, 2007 17:53:22 GMT -5
I just wanted to add that Jesus was not born sinless because He had no earthly father.
Moral character is not derived from the sperm of the Father. Moral character is derived from freewill choices.
Jesus was born sinless just like all babies are, because no baby has yet chosen to sin - Romans 9:11. God calls all babies "innocent blood" in the bible. Good and evil are not by birth, but by choice. Babies are not born good or evil, but are morally neutral or innocent until they make their own freewill choices.
Yet Jesus is the only one who then choose to live right and good. Jesus used His freewill rightly while everyone else has used their freewill wrongly.
Jesus no doubt could have sinned, that is why the devil tempted Him. Jesus had a freewill. But Jesus made daily choices not to sin, and therefore was good. All men determine what their moral character will be. Jesus determined His moral character would be righteous.
The REASON Jesus was born without an earthly Father, was not to avoid getting sin through sperm or through blood (sin is not in sperm or in the blood, all sin is a choice) but the reason Jesus was born without an earthly Father was simply because GOD was His Father. And it was to be a sign that the virgin would give birth. Mary was pregnated by the Holy Spirit supernaturally simply because God was His Father, and this was to be a sign to the people, but not at all so that Jesus could avoid getting "original sin".
But no where does the BIBLE say that Jesus needed to be born without a Father to avoid original sin. That is solely a bad theological assumption. The bible never says that. The bible never says that sin is in the sperm or in the blood. Sin is rather of the heart, sin is a choice of the will.
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 18:09:40 GMT -5
Jesse, we've never heard such unbiblical teaching in all our days as Christians (35 years). You are teaching FALSELY to those who are following you. It's sad to hear. Your concept of Jesus, and your explanation of why he is without sin, and why babies are born SINLESS, without sin is perverted. That means you believe you were born sinless. OH MY!! We pray you will come to the true knowledge of the TRUTH of the gospel. JESUS WAS RIGHTEOUS UNEQUIVOCALLY FROM BIRTH TO RESURRECTION.. Not having our sin nature at all, he wouldn't sin like we do. Do you remember what he told the devil? IT IS WRITTEN.
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 28, 2007 18:21:06 GMT -5
Josh: We say Amen, Amen to your post. The sinless, Lamb of God, who Jesus is; could only atone for our sins.
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