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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 21, 2007 17:57:43 GMT -5
Sorry to bring this up again guys, but I truly haven't hashed this out all the way yet. I am still up in the air about the whole thing. I am working it out through prayer, fear, trembling and reading the Word. I have to teach about this pretty soon to over 100 9th and 10th graders. What do you believe about Original Sin? Was Adam's sin something that was imputed to the whole race? Do we sin because we are sinners, or are we sinners because we sin? Do we have a sinful nature that makes us sin or does our sinful nature just give us aggravated temptation? Or is the whole idea of being born with a sinful nature just a myth? Does Adam's sin only effect us physically (physical death) or spiritually as well. What does the Bible mean when it says we are dead in trespasses and sins? What does "dead" mean? Please back up everything with Scripture. I don't want any opinions...thanks!
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 21, 2007 18:34:24 GMT -5
How soon do you have to teach on it?
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 21, 2007 18:46:47 GMT -5
How soon do you have to teach on it? Not for a while...
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Post by joem on Aug 22, 2007 7:17:21 GMT -5
Sorry to bring this up again guys, but I truly haven't hashed this out all the way yet. I am still up in the air about the whole thing. I am working it out through prayer, fear, trembling and reading the Word. I have to teach about this pretty soon to over 100 9th and 10th graders. What do you believe about Original Sin? Was Adam's sin something that was imputed to the whole race? Do we sin because we are sinners, or are we sinners because we sin? Do we have a sinful nature that makes us sin or does our sinful nature just give us aggravated temptation? Or is the whole idea of being born with a sinful nature just a myth? Does Adam's sin only effect us physically (physical death) or spiritually as well. What does the Bible mean when it says we are dead in trespasses and sins? What does "dead" mean? Please back up everything with Scripture. I don't want any opinions...thanks! If your going to start with the current doctrine of "original sin" you can trace it backward to Augustine and the Manichean's, but no further. If you start with scripture and commentaries written before Augustine redefined orthodoxy, you won't find the doctrine of inherited sin at all. It is dangerous to use "original sin" as the starting point and then bypass its origin and try and compare it to scripture as the starting point (original sin) becomes the point of reference which everything else gets filtered through and you will find yourself proof texting your position. My advice would be to start with Augustine's debates with the Donatist and see what passages he used as the basis for his doctrine. Compare his understanding of those passages to that of the Early Fathers known for their commentaries such as Justin Martyr. Then, set them both down and study the passages he used as proof texts to argue his position without any commentaries at all. After you study the passages thoroughly, ask yourself if scripture leads to the doctrine of original sin, or simply records the history of sin. It is easy to discount Augustine's doctrine of "original sin" due to his problem with fornication and subsequent belief that his sex drive was sinful and was inherited through the semen of Adam and passed to all except Jesus, who had no human male take part in His conception. You can also look at the political power struggle during the time of Augustine and his means of incorporating all citizens into the church by way of infant baptism, with original sin as the premise and primary justification for doing so. Original sin became part of the political process in obtaining power in the Latin African church of the fourth century. These issues caused Augustine to change his position depending on who he was debating and the purpose it served him at the time. He changed his position so often, it is hard to nail down a consistent position he held for any substantial amount of time. This doctrine was never rooted in scripture, yet scripture has been read in such a way as to support it. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 22, 2007 8:42:43 GMT -5
THanks for the good advice Joe. Do you have anywhere to point to where I may get what you are talking about here:
It sounds like you and me are basically on the same page as far as this is concerned. But there is very little info on this these days and very few who believe the way we do. It is hard to stand "alone" at times...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 22, 2007 10:47:01 GMT -5
I would recommend reading Winkie Pratneys articles "The Nature of Sin" and "Adam or Me?"
You can google those articles and find them. That is what really helped me on this issue. I was so perplexed about the whole thing not too long ago.
This is actually the issue that first made me go on a theological binge.
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Post by joem on Aug 22, 2007 11:10:40 GMT -5
THanks for the good advice Joe. Do you have anywhere to point to where I may get what you are talking about here: It sounds like you and me are basically on the same page as far as this is concerned. But there is very little info on this these days and very few who believe the way we do. It is hard to stand "alone" at times... For source material, check out the link below. If you read Augustine in regard to the Manichean's and then again in regard to the Donatist, it is hard to believe it is the same guy. He refutes his own position time and again. Augustine was a much better debater than a theologian, and it shows in his writings. www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf104.toc.html
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 22, 2007 11:29:09 GMT -5
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 22, 2007 11:43:20 GMT -5
Hi revk: Love 9th & 10th graders, they're still open to the truth. Agree with you this subject of sin should be tackled with the Word of God solely and not man's opinions. When studying this in Romans, and a lot of your questions are answered in Romans. Permit me if I have an insight or two about this subject.
Your first question: Adam's sin imputed to the whole human race? Look at Romans 5:12-21 Your answer perfectly! Won't type all the verses, but revk study these and your answers will come.
v.12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. WE INHERIT SIN, DEATH PHYSICALLY & SPIRITUALLY BECAUSE OF ADAM, WE ARE BORN IN SIN. THAT'S WHY WE DIE AND NOT LIVE FOREVER AT THIS TIME. JUST THIS ALONE SHOWS DUE TO ADAM'S SIN WE DIE, IT'S NOT A MYTH. THAT'S WHY JESUS DIED FOR OUR SIN. WHEN JESUS LIVES IN US THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST OUR SPIRIT IS ALIVE NO LONGER DEAD SPIRITUALLY.
v.13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Look at v.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
v.17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Look at Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. SIN DWELLS IN US.
Look at Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? v.10 is good too!
v.10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
We are all sinners. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Look at Romans 3:2425 too!
This will answer your question about trespasses in sin... Epesians 2:1-6
v.1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (quickened in this verse) revived, enlivened; made alive. Praise God!! READ VS. 2,3,4,
V.5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)
v.6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Your right the Word of God should be our reference point alone not what historians, philosophers, etc. have said. The Word of God has the answers.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 22, 2007 11:58:27 GMT -5
The best explainations of the scriptures used to try to promote original sin are answered wonderfully by Finney and Winkie in their articles. I thought that their explainations of the true meaning of those kind of passages were so simple and obvious that I couldn't believe I didn't see it before. Of coarse, Ezekiel 18 says it all.
Anyways, this is such a thorough topic that it requires thorough studying. I couldn't do a better job in my posts then by sharing those articles by Winkie and Finney. They dig so deep into the scriptures and explainations, I couldn't even attempt to do a better job. On such an important issue, I recommend printing out those articles and reading them.
Of coarse, the bible is the standard and the source, by which all things are to be judged. And after studying the whole context of passages, and studying the full counsel of God's word, I'm convinced that everyone is a sinner by choice and is only accountable to their own voluntary - personal violation of known law.
Physical depravity is hereditary, but moral depravity is derived by freewill choices.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 22, 2007 13:43:26 GMT -5
Original Sin?
JKWilliamsSr Said:First in Romans 3:23 it says that "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" That right there states that every single person have sinned. It does not single any group out. "ALL" is inclusive to every human being, Man, Woman and Child.
DAN'S RESPONSE: Correct...all HAVE sinned; yet let us note that the "all" referred to here does not include babies, thus it is NOT inclusive of those who are not under the law, and Paul states clearly that without the law there is no knowledge of sin, and babies are not under law and are thus alive; hence, all have sinned in the sphere of knowledge....to state a baby is a sinner would directly contradict Paul's statement in Romans 7 verse 9:
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Here we see Paul, not "dead in tresspasses in sin" but alive as there was no law to convict him of sin, thereby causing spiritual death.
JKWilliamsSr Said: In Psalm 51, David is repenting for his sins and if you look at verse 5 you will see that it he is talking about being conceived in Sin, it states: "Behold, I was brought fourth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me"
DAN'S RESPONSE: To place this verse as teaching the Doctrine of Original Sin would do great injustice to several passages which would clearly contradict your view.
For instance:
“The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another” (D. R. Dungan, Hermeneutics, p. 196).
JKWilliamsSr Said: Now when you think about that you can also notice how the conception of Jesus was not done in a manner consistent with our human births. That also signifies how we are born in sin becuase the only sinless man to walk the earth was not conceived in our manner.
JKWilliamsSr Said: Another thing to think about. If we are not born into sin why did we need Jesus to come pay the price?
DAN'S RESPONSE: Jesus did not pay for "Original" sin... He paid for MY sin which I MYSELF comitted; so I believe.
DAN'S RESPONSE: As for David being conceived in sin, could such an interpretation stand in light of the exegetical contextual interpretation of the Word of God?
DAN'S RESPONSE: Scripture clearly states that sin is NOT inherited:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God
Also, Scripture states that we become sinners in our YOUTH, not out infancy:
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Jeremiah 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
In conclusion:
Here is what Wayne Jackson states concerning verse 5 of Psalm 51:
Others have suggested that David alludes to an incident in his ancestral lineage, an adulterous affair (Gen. 3Cool, whereby he was considered ceremonially defiled because he was of the 10th generation of that unlawful intercourse (Deut. 23:2). This is probably a rather remote possibility.
The same author notes:
In a similarly poetic section, for example, Job, in denying that he had neglected his benevolent responsibilities, affirmed that he had cared for the orphan and the widow from his mother’s womb! Surely, no one believes that on day one of Job’s existence that he was out ministering to the needy! In fact, the Hebrew parallelism of this verse (Job 31:1Cool, clearly indicates that the word “womb” is used in the sense of “youth.”
In conclusion, how do you reconcile your Original Sin doctrine, based on one verse, with what I have herein stated?
I look forward to your response, brother.
May God continue to use you as you continue to serve Him.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 22, 2007 13:47:10 GMT -5
Hey Jesse...once you move to NC, let me know. I will have to at least have you as a guest speaker at a few of my classes on this topic. I have read Winkie's articles before and will have to read it again. I haven't read Finney's articles on this, but will have to. Thanks for all the links everyone...
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 22, 2007 13:58:15 GMT -5
Something to consider in all our searching for truth... Augustine IS DEAD, JESUS THE WORD OF GOD IS ALIVE... Before deciding exactly what is truth, wouldn't it be better to put more stock in the Word of God than these men? A good verse to remember from, Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. We are only going to overcome by the Word of truth of God's Word not any man's.
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Post by joem on Aug 22, 2007 14:02:16 GMT -5
That is truly a great article, thanks for the link Jesse. Rev, you are right on the mark with this issue, from what I have seen. I know that you are in a tough spot teaching on such a controversial topic in a Christian school setting. If it makes you feel any better, I interview for a pastorate at an SBC church next week, so you are not alone. I included a letter stating my position on some of their core doctrines, yet they still want to speak to me Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 22, 2007 14:28:00 GMT -5
revk: Just one note on this subject you have brought out is, when we are teaching anyone there is something very important to remember. Jesus said this himself, so we need to keep that at the front of whatever else we do with the gospel. Jesus said in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. v.33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. The PREACHING OF THE CROSS.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 22, 2007 18:56:23 GMT -5
The question is: WHAT exactly do we inherit? Do we inherit Adams guilt? Do babies deserve hell for Adams sin? Do we inherit Adams sin? Is sin some comodity, some stuff, other then a choice, that can be transmitted through semen? Do we inherit a proneness to sin? Yes, absolutely. A drug baby inherits drug cravings because of the sin of the parent. We inherit a physical bias, an aggrevated temptation, because of Adams sin. Think about this: 1. Do sinners deserve hell? 2. Are babies born sinners? 3. Do babies deserve hell? What is a sinner? Isn't a sinner someone who voluntarily - willingly - knowingly - chooses to do evil? Is a sinner anything else then someone who chooses to rebel against what they know is good? If not, how can one be born a sinner who has not yet made any choices? Going to hell for being born a sinner would be like going to jail for being born black. There is no criminality or morality in anything other then what is voluntarily and willingly chosen. A moral or immoral condition must be derived from your own freewill, not from your birth. I was just thinking to myself today, "I wonder if Kerrigan will ever have me as a guest speaker at his class. I wonder if teachers can even do that..." I would love to represent my side on this issue. I recommend taking "the academic approach" - simply share and explain the different views and let the students make their own decision. As far as I know, these are the three major views (the scripture references are to support the middle ground): Passages like used to defend original sin: Ps 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. This passage says nothing about Adam, Eve, the fall, or the whole human race. Who is the object and who is the subject in this passage? David is the object, his Mother is the subject. This passage says that it was Davids mother who birthed David in sin. It was the sin of the Mother. Possibly why David was not shown by his father before Samuel at first. He was possibly an embarressment to the family, for being an illegitament child. There are Orthodox Jews who hold to this interpretation. If I told someone, "My Mother had me in sin" they would know what I meant. My mother was not married. I was born in Connecticut, but Connecticut was born in me. Psalms 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." When do babies learn to speak? Immediately after being born, or shortly after being born? This passage does not say babies sinned in or before the womb. But it says they sin after the womb. But you cannot take this passage completely literally. It's a psalm and it's poetic. Babies do not learn to talk immediately after being born, but learn to speak shortly after being born. This passage seems to obviously be saying that it isn't long after birth, maybe a couple years, before children start to sin themselves. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. This passage can be interpreted as to mean automaticly and unconditionally. For is all men are condemned because of Adam, the laws of interpretion would require that all men are justified because of Christ, for the languaged is the same which is used for both of them. But rather, both hell is dependant upon our own actions, and justification in Christ is dependant upon our own choices. Neither condemnation, nor justification is automatic or unconditional for anyone. Adam started a rebellion in the Universe. And those who join him in that rebellion will share in his condemnation. Jesus Christ was crucified for the sins of all mankind, making justification available to all. And those who repent and believe, who are crucified with Christ, will be justified. 1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. The context of this passage is the resurrection. Because of the sin of Adam, all inherit a physically dying body. And now because of Christ, all will be resurrected. That is what the context says. This passage is not talking about moral depravity, but physical depravity. Paul said in Romans 7:20, 7:17 that "sin dwelleth in me". But he clarified his statement a few verses down by saying, "the law of sin that is in my members" (Rom 7:23-25). Paul was talking about "body of death" (Rom 7:24-25) Paul was speaking of the physical depravity that was dwelling in him. We inherit, like a drug baby does, physical feelings and emotions which crave gratification, which craving can be gratified by sin. So we inherit a physical proneness, or a physical bias towards sin. But involuntary physical emotions and feelings are temptation to sin. The "lust of the flesh" is temptation, while obeying the lust of the flesh is a sin. That is the distinction that James made: James 1:14: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. So we must distinguish between the physical and the moral, between the constitutional and the ethical. Physical lust, according to James, is "temptation" which brings forth "sin" when it is yeilded to. So there is no doubt we inherit a physical proneness and bias towards sin because of our parents. Medical science even proves this with drug babies. But we are only accountable for our own sins, for our own choices. And if we voluntarily yeild to the lust of the flesh, THEN we are guilty of sin.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 22, 2007 21:26:04 GMT -5
This is the exact view of this school when it comes to "non-essential" doctrine. I can tell students my opinion, BUT I cannot push it on them.
One class is VERY EAGER to talk about this issue. It is the 10th grade class. They studied basic doctrine in 9th grade and their teacher believed that babies go to hell. It seems he has even convinced some of the students as well...
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 22, 2007 22:00:56 GMT -5
I know you have probably gave your thoughts on the below verse before, but I don't remember what you say about it. What do you think the below verse means? If sin is only or always an action, it just doesn't make sense.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Also, what do these scriptures mean?
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Can someone/something bear the action of another?
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 22, 2007 23:31:27 GMT -5
Even though it seems my sharing is falling on deaf ears in this thread, could be this conversation is for men only. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. I will offer what I believe these verses could mean. According to, Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. to bear: carry The goat in those verses represent according to the Old Covenant Christ and what he did for our sins in the New Covenant. He took upon him the sins of the whole world. Look at, I John 2:2 An he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. propitiation: appeasement, satisfaction We are all born in sin, we are not sinless when we are born. Only Jesus the sinless, perfect Lamb of God was born with no sin. That's the only way the Father would accept his sacrifice on the cross. Babies are not accountable for sin until they reach the age where they know they are sinning. Until that time babies DO NOT EVER GO TO HELL. There will be millions of babies that God created in heaven when we get there.
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Post by Josh Parsley on Aug 23, 2007 20:53:24 GMT -5
You're not totally alone in your belief.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 23, 2007 21:07:54 GMT -5
If we have a sinful nature that makes us sin, then didn't Jesus have to have a sinful nature too according to Hebrews 2:17?
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 23, 2007 21:09:37 GMT -5
Thank you Josh, that blesses me, your a blessing!
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 23, 2007 21:28:49 GMT -5
revk: Jesus absolutely did not have our sin nature. He was the sinless, Lamb of God, he is God. Jesus was tempted as we are, but he knew no sin or else when he died on the cross the Father wouldn't accept his sacrifice. It had to be a spotless sacrifice. He bore our sins on the cross. Jesus is our high priest as in, Hebrews 4:14-15 These verses answer your question. Praise God!!! v.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passes into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. v.15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN. v.16 is his promise to us who love him
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Post by joem on Aug 23, 2007 21:44:30 GMT -5
I know you have probably gave your thoughts on the below verse before, but I don't remember what you say about it. What do you think the below verse means? If sin is only or always an action, it just doesn't make sense. 2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Also, what do these scriptures mean? Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Can someone/something bear the action of another? Josh, In the passages you posted, do you believe that is is the actual sin being passed from man to Christ or from man to goat, or just the condemnation of the sin? It may help to plug in any specific transgression in the spot where sin is mentioned. 2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be a adulterer for us, who knew no adulterer; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. I don't believe that Jesus was an adulterer, a murderer, a liar, an idolater or a sinner in any sense of the word. I do believe that he suffered as a result of sin and took upon Himself the sins of the world in that He willingly suffered as the innocent Lamb of God provided to atone for sin. Taking on the responsibility of paying a debt is not the same as creating the debt or being the debtor. Just as Paul did not become a run-away slave when he told Philemon to put anything Onesimus owed him on his account, Jesus did not become sexually immoral when he offered to put that sin on his account. The OT sacrifices served as a shadow of the redemption to come and a means of showing their faithfulness to the covenant that God made with them. The scape goat was not possessed with the sins of Israel, it merely served as a shadow or picture of the redemption to come. The sacrifice in and of itself had no power, it was God who gave the sacrifices and the scapegoat substance. That is why David said what he did in the Psalm 51:16-19 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. Grace and Peace, Joe
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 23, 2007 21:59:12 GMT -5
revk: Jesus absolutely did not have our sin nature. He was the sinless, Lamb of God, he is God. Jesus was tempted as we are, but he knew no sin or else when he died on the cross the Father wouldn't accept his sacrifice. It had to be a spotless sacrifice. He bore our sins on the cross. Jesus is our high priest as in, Hebrews 4:14-15 These verses answer your question. Praise God!!! v.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passes into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. v.15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN. v.16 is his promise to us who love him Thanks for your post. I think that you may have misunderstood me though. I don't think Jesus sinned. I would never say that! If you were to read the verse I posted though, you would see why I said Jesus would have to have been born with a "sin nature" if we were born with a "sin nature" because Hebrews 2:17 says, "Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest..." Also, Hebrews 2:18 says, "For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted." And Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but was in ALL POINTS tempted AS WE ARE, yet without sin." -If Christ was REALLY tempted in ALL POINTS, just AS WE ARE, and we are born with a Sinful Nature, then He had to of been born with a sinful nature too according to this Scripture, right?
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 23, 2007 22:00:23 GMT -5
Good post Joe...I was thinking along the same lines...
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Post by runner4jesus on Aug 23, 2007 22:40:23 GMT -5
revk: The Adamic sin nature is ours alone. He couldn't have the sin nature without being born in sin as we are. The SIN NATURE IS INSEPERABLE WITH BEING BORN IN SIN. Glad you understand Jesus was without sin. He was tempted, suffered and knew our pain, but without a sin nature/sin. When the Word says Jesus was without sin that includes the sin nature.
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 23, 2007 22:50:16 GMT -5
revk: The Adamic sin nature is ours alone. He couldn't have the sin nature without being born in sin as we are. The SIN NATURE IS INSEPERABLE WITH BEING BORN IN SIN. Glad you understand Jesus was without sin. He was tempted, suffered and knew our pain, but without a sin nature/sin. When the Word says Jesus was without sin that includes the sin nature. No one is born in sin. We are born with the results of sin, but not in sin itself. The "Born in sin" doctrine is purely Calvinistic/Roman Catholic and is nowhere found in Scripture, dear friend. May God open our eyes to see His Word.
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Post by Kerrigan on Aug 24, 2007 9:59:06 GMT -5
revk: The Adamic sin nature is ours alone. He couldn't have the sin nature without being born in sin as we are. The SIN NATURE IS INSEPERABLE WITH BEING BORN IN SIN. Glad you understand Jesus was without sin. He was tempted, suffered and knew our pain, but without a sin nature/sin. When the Word says Jesus was without sin that includes the sin nature. No one is born in sin. We are born with the results of sin, but not in sin itself. The "Born in sin" doctrine is purely Calvinistic/Roman Catholic and is nowhere found in Scripture, dear friend. May God open our eyes to see His Word. Amen Dan! We are sinners because we sin. We don't sin because we're sinners!
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Post by pentecostalpower on Aug 24, 2007 10:12:52 GMT -5
Amen, Revk!
I'm thankful I dropped the "born in sin" doctrine as many here have, including Jesse and yourself!
Amen!
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