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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 25, 2006 12:19:26 GMT -5
Fear and love are intimately connected. Because if we don't fear, we don't love. Every fear you have, if you think about it, is connected to something (or someone) you cherish. Try that on and get back to me on your thoughts....
I disagree.
However, Valentine, what unconditioned response has been tied to your conditioned stimulus (sex) to cause the phobia? Not sure if there would be one, but that's the classical conditioning view of it. Just curious.
I find fear as being a hindrance to love. To fear is to worry about one's self. So how can you say you love God if you're afraid of him? It sounds to me like your foundation is based on the self... please correct me if I'm mistaken. As you said, you lived that fear for a moment, but now it's like a cornerstone of your life.
Death used to cause me fear. And then I realized how selfish that was. I'd hope you all would Know that I value gratitude as a cornerstone, not fear.
I don't fear disappointing my parents. And I do love them. I don't Want to lose them, you know?
Reading down through the posts more, how can you fear life apart from God and still be completely grateful for what he's given you? That seems... selfish... Sorry, but that's my interpretation of it.
I also agree with Valentine - I feel a sense of perfection in life. Not that everything's all happy-happy, but ... it's perfect the way it is. It's life, hehe.
And also agreeing with Valentine, absolute surrender is a bad plan... I simply don't understand why God would have given you individuality if he wanted you to be a robot or tool. What also worries me, though, are the examples of those who have absolutely surrendered: Nazis and other soldiers who have slayne women and children, cult-members who've committed mass suicides, etc... Now That is something to be fearful of, lol
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 25, 2006 14:24:50 GMT -5
"The only fear we have to fear is fear itself." --President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Kudos Valentine, I loved the reference to the locus of control.
Fear does not lead to love. Fear leads only to more fear, to hate, to anger, and finally to aggression. (The dark side are these, j/k). The only people who use fear, are people who want to be revered for their own good. They do not care about the emotional condition of the objects of that fear.
If God's modus operandi is fear, God sounds an awful lot like the kind of person who uses violence or the threat thereof to keep people in line, this God seems to demand absolute allegiance to a whimisical code of "justice." Perhaps we should call him "Il Duce" or "der Führer."
"Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom." --Bertrand Russell
"No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear." --Edmund Burke
"Fear is the tax that conscience pays to guilt." --George Sewell
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." --Frank Herbert
Fear does NOT lead to love. Love does. You don't grow to love a boyfriend/girlfriend because you are afraid they will beat you. You love someone because they give love to you. That is why some of the newer "hecklers" find certain images of god so frightening.
More later, I have to go to a meeting.
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Post by Jules on Apr 25, 2006 22:20:16 GMT -5
Valentine, you're reading the wrong book for starters. The answers to life's questions isn't in some college Psych book, it is in the Word of God. And the Word of God says over and over that ABSOLUTE SURRENDER is required. Nothing less. Take up your cross and follow me, Jesus said. I know it goes against everything you've been taught, but you've been taught wrong unfortunately.
I'm not saying surrender to just anyone here, I'm saying surrender to your Creator! He already knows every intimate detail about you.
Bottom line, unless you repent, you WILL perish. NO matter how happy, peaceful, self-actualized, enlightened, etc. you are. You will still be in sin and guilty on judgment day. That is why I plead with you to step out in faith and read the Bible, seek God. On HIS terms, not yours. I'll be praying for you....
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Post by Jules on Apr 25, 2006 22:25:05 GMT -5
Fear and love are intimately connected. Because if we don't fear, we don't love. Every fear you have, if you think about it, is connected to something (or someone) you cherish. Try that on and get back to me on your thoughts....I disagree. I find fear as being a hindrance to love. To fear is to worry about one's self. So how can you say you love God if you're afraid of him? It sounds to me like your foundation is based on the self... please correct me if I'm mistaken. As you said, you lived that fear for a moment, but now it's like a cornerstone of your life. Reading down through the posts more, how can you fear life apart from God and still be completely grateful for what he's given you? That seems... selfish... Sorry, but that's my interpretation of it. And also agreeing with Valentine, absolute surrender is a bad plan... I simply don't understand why God would have given you individuality if he wanted you to be a robot or tool. What also worries me, though, are the examples of those who have absolutely surrendered: Nazis and other soldiers who have slayne women and children, cult-members who've committed mass suicides, etc... Now That is something to be fearful of, lol I hope you aren't comparing me (or other Christians) to Nazis and cult members! Seriously, those people may have surrednered, but the OBJECT of surrender is what defines it of course. Surrendering to an addiction, a bad relationship, or the like IS unhealthy. But surrendering to your Creator who desires fellowship with you? How is that unhealthy even by the world's standards? I am not fearful of God anymore because I am not in sin anymore. But when I WAS in sin I was scared of Him. Now that I am not, I honor him and have a healthy "fear" which translates into honor and reverence. But, should I slip into sin, I would fear discipline from Him, as one would from parents on earth if those parents loved them enough to discipline them.
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Post by valentine on Apr 26, 2006 8:46:10 GMT -5
Valentine, you're reading the wrong book for starters. The answers to life's questions isn't in some college Psych book, it is in the Word of God. And the Word of God says over and over that ABSOLUTE SURRENDER is required. Nothing less. Take up your cross and follow me, Jesus said. I know it goes against everything you've been taught, but you've been taught wrong unfortunately. Your opinion, and nothing more. It's starting to seem like you didn't read my original post ( ), in which I think I adequately explained why I'm going to take my psych book's word over the Bible, which I stopped trying to believe when I was sixteen. If I believe any works of fiction, they'll be Les Miserables and The Fountainhead (they are where I look for compassion and independence respectively; maybe I will make another post about that) but I believe them as works of fiction. I'm not saying surrender to just anyone here, I'm saying surrender to your Creator! He already knows every intimate detail about you. He/She/It/They may or may not, actually, and He/She/It/They may or may not even exist to know it. And if He/She/It/They want me to do something psychologically harmful, I'd like to politely point out that that's not very nice of them. Bottom line, unless you repent, you WILL perish. NO matter how happy, peaceful, self-actualized, enlightened, etc. you are. You will still be in sin and guilty on judgment day. That is why I plead with you to step out in faith and read the Bible, seek God. On HIS terms, not yours. I'll be praying for you.... Y'all keep saying the exact same things, really. I know you want me to "repent." I'm not going to "repent." If you think that's a problem, I am very sorry to disappoint you; I personally find a problem with the hateful way in which some board members attempt to share their beliefs, but my expressing wishes that they stop won't make them do so. I don't need for them to stop for me to be happy. I think you're incorrect about the way the world works--but you can live your entire life believing exactly what you believe and that won't bother me at all, make my own life any less happy/wonderful, or make me consider you less of a person/friend. I have no reason to try and mold others' beliefs to my own. That gives me no sense of satisfaction whatsoever and I firmly believe it unnecessary--also, I tend to lose friends that way. It's really a very peaceful way to live. I think this is why the agnostics that I know tend to be much more relaxed and easier to get along with, especially in a diverse crowd. I'm extremely accepting. I have to be: I accept you, don't I? Because that's okay; you can keep thinking I'm going to die in a lake of fire and etc (personally, I've always found Dante's concept of hell much more interesting than the Biblical one--and if it is real, I'd much rather go there if it's all the same to god, because then I'd get to hang out with Socrates as a Virtuous Pagan!). You can keep thinking I'm being consumed by my sins from the inside out. I guess we'll see who's right when we die, won't we? Please understand, I'm not saying that in a pretentious way like I have often had it said to me--for all I know, I could turn into an ant when I stop breathing! If you want me to look deep within myself and guess, my heart's telling me that nothing is going to happen after I stop breathing...I'll just be gone. Which of course makes me very sad, so I kind of hope that I will be wrong ('cos I think I might prefer hell, even your concept of it, to that). I don't want to lose who I am. I love who I am. A lot. But really, we will see who's right soon enough, and frankly I'm in no rush for it to be any sooner than it must be. Know that I may be afraid of being dead (terrified, actually) but I am not afraid of divine judgment. And to my mind, that'll at least be a point in my favor no matter what happens: I wasn't afraid. It might also help that I don't drink, use drugs, engage in promiscuous/unsafe sex, am not violent, am kind to others, help others whenever possible...etc. And yes, I know somebody said (might have even been you) that god does not care about any of that. At which point I would like to point out two things: 1. God is very mean not to acknowledge my sincere attempts at being a good person and 2. Whether god cares or not, I care a great deal; I suspect this might be a point of contention between god and myself, should we ever meet. And for the record, I do everything on my terms--and that is non-negotiable.
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Post by Jules on Apr 26, 2006 10:58:41 GMT -5
Valentine, I pray you will not take this post in an unloving manner, but I must serve God and please Him, not men (or women). I don't compromise the message. I don't conform, and I don't make excuses for myself or for others.
Your post makes it clear you are nowhere near repentance. You are defiant, rebellious, and refuse to hear the truth. It has been spoken, there is nothing more to say on the matter. I am not sure why you are here then. Why subject yourself to the constant onslaught of judgment, hell, sin, etc if you will not repent? Is it somehow pleasurable for you? Or do you have doubts you might be wrong?
I enjoy talking with you - but there are others to minister to and who need to be saves. If you have hardened your heart to the things of God and are unwilling to discover the truth and exchange the truth for a lie as Romans 1 speaks of, then further discussion is pointless.
Because I firmly believe that you are going to hell, and others as well because they won't repent, I feel I must do all I can to reach lost souls for the glory of God. I care about you and others, but refuse to pour in more than the Lord will permit me otherwise I am doing it for slefish reasons. I have to be obedient to His leading. I have reached out to you - and perhaps planted a seed...God's Word will not return void. I pray one day the Lord will break your hard heart and fill you with the knowledge of Him. Until then, I pray you don't die in your sins and find out you were wrong all along.
God's blessing of grace to you I pray.....
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Post by valentine on Apr 26, 2006 11:15:04 GMT -5
I don't compromise the message. I don't conform, and I don't make excuses for myself or for others. Excellent! I don't, either! I think that's a great start towards a solid beliefs system. I am not sure why you are here then. Why subject yourself to the constant onslaught of judgment, hell, sin, etc if you will not repent? Is it somehow pleasurable for you? Or do you have doubts you might be wrong? I really don't understand. Why can't I enter a friendly discussion with people who are different than me? I love learning more and meeting others of different beliefs. I am friends with Atheists, Catholics, Jews, Pagans, Mormons, Muslims, Humanists, on and on, and I love them all. I didn't come here to convince you or be convinced. I'm not friends with my friends who have different beliefs so I can convince them. And it makes me sad that you'd wish to drop contact with me as soon as it became clear that I wasn't going to be convinced of your specific viewpoint. This is the exact kind of behavior that so hurt me at X-school, as I said in my story post. People pretending to be my friends when all they really wanted was to "convert" me. It makes me sad, but I'm beyond that now, and will instead see this as an unfortunate development beyond my control. You have made me very sad if I interpret this correctly. I talk with you because I like talking with you--but apparently it is not mutual.
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Post by dmclayton on May 3, 2006 3:47:53 GMT -5
jules, your blind faith is a good indication of weakmindedness, and that if you were born in another country you would not be a christian but whatever faith is instilled there. you would make a good taoist, hindu, buddhist, muslim, or jew because of your willingness to follower versus a desire to lead and think for yourself. people like you are the reason why events such as the crusades, holocaust, burning times, exploitation and murder of south and native north american indians, etc. are allowed to happen in the name of some deity.
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Post by Morluna on May 3, 2006 6:24:22 GMT -5
Clayton: I think it's unfair to lump Buddhists in there... the Buddhist faith stands out by having no deity to follow... the entire faith is based on self-acualization, reaching Nirvana.
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 11:21:09 GMT -5
jules, your blind faith is a good indication of weakmindedness, and that if you were born in another country you would not be a christian but whatever faith is instilled there. you would make a good taoist, hindu, buddhist, muslim, or jew because of your willingness to follower versus a desire to lead and think for yourself. people like you are the reason why events such as the crusades, holocaust, burning times, exploitation and murder of south and native north american indians, etc. are allowed to happen in the name of some deity. dmclayton, I DO NOT RECEIVE THAT. You are an abomination before a holy God. Humble yourself before the Lord, or BE humbled by Him on judgment day. The choice is yours. I could care less what you think of me. My desire is to please my Father in heaven, not man, and certainly not someone like you.
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Post by Jules on May 3, 2006 11:28:09 GMT -5
Valentine said: "You have made me very sad if I interpret this correctly. I talk with you because I like talking with you--but apparently it is not mutual."
I enjoy talking with you as well. But because I care about you, not just for here and now but esp for eternity, I would do you an injustice by telling you what you want to hear, what makes you happy, comfortable, etc. My intention and motivation is always in love, or at least I pray it is. The times I have deviated from it I have repented from before God, because first and foremost I sin against Him when I do anything not out of love.
1 Corinthians 13 says that if I have faith that can move mountains, but have not love, it is nothing. I certainly don't even have a faith that moves mountains, I admit that. But I will never stop striving to know my Lord more and more. He redeemed me. I will forever praise and magnify Him. I don't want you to see "me" in any of this - I want you to see a work of His grace. I apologize if you have not been able to see that.
Valentine, I pray for you as well (I also pray for Morluna) but I struggle between my love for you (because you are lost and deceived) and my love for the Lord. At times I feel I must respond to your comments in a certain way, otherwise I will have somehow, by my silence, permitted GOd's character to be misunderstood, etc. Now of course God is big enough to defend Himself, but His children take it personally too at times. I know that probably doesn't make sense to you, but it is like someone trash talking about my son, or a spouse, friend, parent, etc. You love them and want to rise up in their defense. Again, God doesn't need my defense of course,I am nothing. My words are nothing. But all that I am, I am in Christ and because of Christ. All I boast in is Christ, and Him alone.
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Post by dmclayton on May 4, 2006 7:55:36 GMT -5
haha. i like how you quoted me, but completely avoided it...
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Post by dale on Sept 9, 2006 7:08:08 GMT -5
Just stopping by briefly in early morning, but not for long. I scanned the board some and found this old thread, which I am going to raise from thed ead, kind of like Jesus raising Lazarus!!!!!!!
This would probably be where my story, for I wish to tell of it, would belong, and I will do so later tonight should time allow.
Sadly, I noticed no one as of yet has taken me up on my incitation for them to give me their testimony, unload whatever holy word they wish to unload on me and so on, without argument or rebuke, on my final post from the Boycott Our Film thread. There is still time, but the meter is running....
I will be back on this thread later tonight.
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Post by oap001 on Sept 9, 2006 14:09:46 GMT -5
I am posting this in a new thread because it was very off topic for the Easter thread, and because I want as many people to read it as possible. Jules just said something that I think all of the "non-heathens" should read. Just curious as to how you guys think about this - and for the record, can you guys let me know what your backgrounds are so I can understand where you are coming from better? I guess this should be in another thread - maybe I will move it. I agree it sounds like a question for another thread (which is why I've created one). But kudos to you, and I mean that sincerely, because this is the first post ever on this board that has actually expressed any concern or curiosity at all about who I am, what I believe, why I believe it and what happened in my life to cause me to believe it. And consequently, you're currently the only person on this board (that I disagree with) who I would even consider taking seriously. Actually, let me quote this again, just to make sure that all the admins and "regulars" got it: can you guys let me know what your backgrounds are so I can understand [/i][/u]where you are coming from better?[/quote] Jesse, Miles, Rev K, Josh, Evanschaible, etc, etc: I hope you read that. I hope you read it very, very carefully. Yelling at people to repent in all caps will make them laugh at you. Genuinely caring about their personal situations and wanting to learn will make them listen to you. Thank you, Jules. I would be happy to answer any of your questions here. And with that, I'd like to open this discussion to everyone: why do you believe what you believe? What events in your life caused you to believe this? This is for members of all creeds, by the way. Let's take this as an opportunity to listen and understand. [/quote] I didn't get a chance to read thru this thread. But I agree 100%. We need to learn something about one and other and walk with each other. That doesn't mean that I would question my beliefs....but it would help me to learn something about you all and to access your needs and also my misconceptions.
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Post by dale on Sept 9, 2006 19:57:50 GMT -5
A deal is a deal.
My name is Dale P----- and I am 47, 48 in some three weeks. I am married and we have no chidlren, but do have two Beta fish. I live in a house which looks remarkably like the Amnityville Horror house and I am dead serious (one of those where the windows make it look like the house has eyes). After growing up in Arizona and leaving the big city problems there behind us, we moved to the heart of plowpusher land in Ohio , only to find we live in jesus country USA and we have just traded one set of problems for a different set, as this place is much like Days Of Ours Lives come to life.
One of the biblethumpers here asked me why I hate christians. This is a simple question but there is no simple answer. I cannot pinpoint one thing and that is the truth, but rather would say it was many things, a brick at a time. When I say I hate christians, you must understand I speak in a general term and not individuals. (For the most aprt, as there are some individuals I do hate) There are some christians friends that we both have. I have reported favorably, believe it or not, in some magazine and net columns on both the Cloud Ten Pictures and the Way of the Master tv show.. Those trying to deal with me will find me to be a complex person and sometimes contradictory in this way. I am a paradox. I am not always easy to get to like or especially to know. My first memories of church were from methodist upbringing with my parents. Yawn. That is how I can describe it best. I remember at around 7th grade, really starting to dislike the chuirchgoers even then,. I was always way above average intelligence in school, maybe genius range, and thus I could not communicate with others my age well because I was so much more advanced then them. I am not saying this to sound conceited, but simply stating what I remember. They bored me. (You might think I sound like an idiot with some of the typos, but again 1. I need new bifocals and am reluctant to admit I am aging and go get them 2.. I did years worth of work on a typewriter, which is different than a keyboard on a computer and harder for me to work on.. On a typewriter you hit keys much harder and when you do so on a computer keyboard , things skip badly). Anyway, thanks to peer pressure, in aweak and humiliating moment for me to own up to now, I made the alter call in the theatre after seeing the church endorsed Cross & The Switchblade. Thankfully it was a false conversion". Amen! Some believe in the concept of "once saved, always saved," but I hope most people here do not as I do NOT want to go to heaven now, even if it should be real, which i do not believe it is, thanks to a technicality when I was young.
Through high school I began to keep more to myself. I did not need other people. I had a two year college scholarship to Phoenix College set, I had my first story sold at age 14 and my first book at 18. I had a pref. for my own company. I was also really starting to dislike the Methodist crew all the more and by the time I hit the end of high school, was pretty much done with the church,.Some of the conflict with them was my own doing, but hey I was a teenager then and teenagers are well, teenagers.
This was when I had my first encounter with a form of street preacher who in a park, handed me a newspaper loaded down with that fire and brimstoine bs, written by a nun (ex nun?) named M. Basliia Shlenk ( name may be off, but she was high profile in the 1970s, now long dead I believe). I read all this and thought it was the most hilarious stuff I'd ever read. I also saw what a tyrant the christians had for a god. Sorry, but it was what went through my mind and still does. I kept this list from the paper for a long time. In this paper they had a wqyestiona nd answer thing to determine if you were evil or not, i.e. have you done this, done that, done thatm etc. I stashed it away for many years as a guide on how to sin better. I am serious. This is a prime example of the illogical jesus Hates You Now Be Saved preaching this Biblethumper cat spoke out against on another thread in another section here . I can safely say this form of preahcing may well be what started me on the road to rejecting christianity, studying its flaws, looking for contradictions in the bible and my turn offs with the christian concept of god. rather than cause me to accept it, it caused me to scorn it. I am sorry guys, but the God hates you approach went out with Jonathan Edwards. I am proof it creates enemies of god and christ, not friends.
In Jr College I ran into the infamous Campus Cruisade For Christ people and by then was on the road to arguing with them, mocking them and the whole gambit. One of them was on the wretsling team and one of my constant questions was "if god is on your side, why do you lose." I was nondiscriminatory though, as I also antagonized some of the Catholics form the Newman Center, though they were not nearly as much fun to mess with.
As luck would have it I ended up at a babtist college Phoenix, Being my father had died, my mother did not want to be alone in the hiuse and this enabled me to stay there at nights rather than moving to Tempe and go to ASU or make a daily hour long drive each way.. It was a bad decision. Many stories could be told about this place and these people, but this is for another day. It was at this point my characters started killing christians in my books, a trend that still goes on in my fiction. It was also where I saw, more street preaching as the ministerial students would do trial runs in the student lounge area. Street preachers are bad enough, but a baptist streetpreacher is one of the worst. The funniest incident came where one of them got the opportunity to speak at a big baptist church and got kicked out of the college because when he went to preach, he tripped over the microphone coprd and let out a "G--- Damn it!" right in front of everyone. Funniets thing I ever saw.
I continued to work in a number of areas, including the minor leagues of pro wrestling (Please, let;s not ask me a bunch of questions on this, I just bring it up to showsome if the diversity in my life), worked as a contibuting editor for two wretsling magazines, covered bullfighting in the border town of Nogales for a number of Spanish and Mexican papers, as well as writing for various magazines and papers on a number of subjects and doing books (Please, let us not start a pro and con debate about bullfights either, this is again to show my diversity), I started making trips overseas, where I saw and learned about other people , religions and cultures (not keen on these either , again I have some interesting stories but these are for another day), I did more writing, and on the side, started disliking christianity all the more. Ither incidents of course happened but I do not wish to dwell on every one of them.
When my mother died in 1991, I ended up teaching at a Christian school for one year. Hey I lied to get the job, kind of. I gave them a sappy testimony about receiving christ after seeing The Cross & The Switchblade, etc...and they fell for it (Yeah, yeah, I know, spare me the shame on you...). The irony is when there I passed as a christian for a year, taught the classes dare I say better than most of the teachers they had coming through and had I been a "real one;' could have made a d**n good bornagainer. The irony was, once again, I saw the contradictions of the christians. While I may have shafted them, their school shafted me. They gossiped about me (being single and in my thirties the gossip was I was a gay when I started and by the time it was the end of the year, I was being gossiped about running through every single woman or having the desire for them, in their church, neither of which was through. Gotta love those Assembly Of God (explitives) don't you. Did I shaft them by taking the job (It was there, available at the time and easy money, plus with my mother just gone my head was obviously not on right). Then they shafted me. They al.so shafted all the teachers on a bonus we were supposed to get, if we did not use sick leave. After my year there I told their doubledealing minsiter outright I was done, going back to substitute teaching with normal people in the secular school, going back to wrestling, back to writing, (I tossed a couple of my horror books on his desk for his reading pleasure, rather than just the Wild West history one I had used to impress him to begin with, plus a couple adult magazine articles I had written beforehand) back to a happy life of sin and several other things, including how I had conned him even better than he and his administration had conned me (and the real christians working in the class there). You know, suspiciously, none of this ever made it to their gossip cycles, though they were so keen on every other gossip they could come up with. This man was as big a crook as I was, a boring minister who could have put a world at war to sleep with his sermons and a (I probably can't get by with the rest of it) Again, he was typoical of the christians, the norm and not the exception.. Later , whenever I did a newspaper, fabnzine or radio interview I expressedly stated I had taught there for one year and why I left and I dropped notes/sent copies to be sure he saw this. Revenge is sweet. I had heard later that he had a serious heart attack (do not know or care if he died,. That was a long time ago and he wa sno spring chicken then, so who knows) but I sincerely hope it came right when he was reading one of the articles I mailed him.
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Post by dale on Sept 9, 2006 20:24:00 GMT -5
To continue.
IN 1993 I met my wife to be. We lived together in sin and all (draw your own conclusions) until 1998 when we were married (courthouse of course)before leaving Arizona, having had enough of the crime, pollution, overcrowding, troubles, gangs, etc that infested the Phoenix suburbs. We moved to small town America. We have been together in one form or another for over 13 years now. We do not cheat in each other, we do not have any desire to split up, and we are in it for life. Dare I say many of the christians we knew have not stayed together this long,. I can turn this into a semron on why a marriage does not need christ to succeed and how we are proof of this, but that again is a ropic for another day.
It was in Ohio the final straw came with the christians. I befriended a pastor of a nondenominational church I will not name. .The guy came off as very sincere and humble so I went to some of his sermons, with the understanding he had two chances of saving me, slim and none. Then the kicker came. Suddenly this guy started to get weirder and weirder,. He later joined another offbeat goof I am not going to name, but commonly accepted even among the christians as a cult preacher (We can turn this into an argument about christianity itself being a cult, again an object of discussion for another time). When he had a woman come through here, a prominant female evangelist who has been debunked varied times, making gold dust fall from the ceiling and her hair while preaching (incredible in this day and age that people here would believe this, like a scene right out of Leap Of faith), that was it for us. Evidently he inherited this blessing also and when I saw him in a coffee house where I do my snail mail work, he even tried to scam me with this and showed me these "gold samples" roughly the same glitter I could steal form an art class in grade school, which had fallen from his beard when he was preaching.
Uh huh. Sure. I do not mind being lied to, so much, but someone could at least make it a credible lie. To do otherwise is to say "Ithinky ou are stupid" because what they are saying if you get down to it is "I thin you are stupid and that is why I am asking you to believe this line of ----."
That again, was a snapping point for me. And for my wife. On the other hand we did make two good friends with two of the christians who also left the church at the same time the Rumplestiltskin act came into being. We are friends to this day, though they try, again, they have two chances of saving either of us, those being slim and none. How well they would get along with the street preachers here or if they would be considered :"real christians" is not a matter of concern to me.
I am a paradox. I am to those who try to know me, a contradiction. I love myself, my wife and hose in my immediate circle (Please, no sermon, okay...), I do not love my enemies,. I do not forgive those who slight me, unless I am in a really good mood or it is to my advantage to do so. I can,I suppose, make a good friend, but make a far worse enemy.
My wife's background is somewhat similar to this Valentine girl , which is another reason why I chose to link my partial testimony to this ocne dead thread. My wife does not come to this page and has no desire to do so, though I often mention something to her or casually tell her "Time for me to screw with the Christians for a little bit."
I do not care whether people here like me or not , as long as they boycott my film for me (had to throw that in). Essentially it 's like this. XXX con seguros. Roughly, it means whatever you wish on me, I wish double back on you.
Considering no one bothered to respond to my oither post where I sincerely gave you the opportunity to preach all the word you wanted to me without repercussion, some of you might be glad I even bothered to post this thread. The thing is, I said I would and a deal is a deal.
Plus I am in a good mood after the book signing as I turned a decent profit. There were other writers there. I had told me wife beforehand, "Watch them put me next to a (expletive) bornagainer.
Sure enough, I was next to an Assembly Of God woman for the whole afternoon.
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Post by dale on Sept 9, 2006 20:34:22 GMT -5
Numerous typos again, but you all can figure it out by taking the time to transpose some of the mistypes or eliminate extra kletters. Not so difficult. Again, eyesight and a hatred for computer keyboards as opposed to the typewriters I worked with for decades (my hatred for the computer keyboard almost matches my hatred for street preachers), so I apologize for the errors. Well, you will figure the thing out. If not, ask me if I care, I will do it for you.
"Dale, do you really care?"
"Uh, no...just boycott my film.:
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Post by oap001 on Sept 9, 2006 21:10:04 GMT -5
Well first off your experiences with these people are strange. They don't appear to be Christian to me.
I was always very concerned about my salvation. Don't know why..but I remember taking Communion in Church and the pastor saying, "the blood of Christ given for you". And I always thought..really?? I grew up in a non-Bible believing Church and everyone always acted, or attempted to act Holy. And I felt rejected.....I mean I knew it was an act. These people were drunkards and such.
I was very rebellious in school...from about the age 13, I used to binge drink. In fact I have blacked out many..many times. We use to wear leather jackets and hiking boots and we all had hair down to the middle of our backs. I was completely turned over to heavy metal music. To the extent that it was my religion. I've gone to, probably 2 dozen concerts.
Anyway, I have no clue how I ever made it thru school as I hardly ever attended. I was into fighting and such and although I will leave the details out. A pastor got a hold of me and gave me the Gospel. I couldn't believe I was actually doing this at the time. But I knelt down and accepted Christ as savior.
I felt a weight being lifted off of me and I from that time on I had a different knowledge of sin. I became convicted and offended by sin in my life and I began to turn from it.
Without any further instructions...I threw all my records and tapes away..all my music. Probably well over 1000 dollars worth.
Unfortunally....I didn't get to grow spiritually at that time and I ended up in the military. I actually excelled there but I longed to have a family. So eventually I got out and I began to turn still from drinking and immoral behavior. I credit thsi to no edification or fellowship with other Christians. While in the military I slid into and out of sin because there was nothing else, or so I thought.
SoI get out and I pray that God helps me and he did. He gave me a family and I found a good Church where I was able to grow past my wildest expediattions. I went thru an experence where over several weeks I repented of every sin I could think of and God healed me and gave me a sound mind.
I have scene the power of God and His ability to change people and lives. This is about as detailed as I can be....I have learned that Jesus is real..the Bible is real and that He takes away guilt and makes you new again.
There was a consequence for all my sin. I reaped what I sowed. I know that....and I live every day in submission to Christ. It matters more than anyone could ever know in this lifetime.
I desire only that you all would know this Power, and of a changed life, right relationship with God and to truly love your fellow man.
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Post by dale on Sept 9, 2006 21:41:03 GMT -5
I think of time allows I will hit modify and see if I can fix the typos. I was also rushing to get this subject done as it is not a pleasant memory for me
Perhaps I should include that some of the people on this board or from current area streetpreachers here (NOT a part of your clique as far as I know) have not endeared me to christianity any more than I have endeared myself to them.
I do face a conflict here where I cannot bring myself to confront the street preachers and having them bind satan in me or whatever has nothing to do with it. One of the guys always out there runs an antique shop here and has two magnificent boxer dogs which I dearly love. I will often sidetrack into his store to see these beautiful creatures and to look nose to nose with them, where they can lick my face.
He will never know the agggravation he and his friends have been spared at my hand, not for the respect of his message, but due to my love for his two boxer dogs.
At the church of the great gold dust miracle, before we left there, one girl asked me once during their community supper after services, "Dale, aren;t you afraid to go to hell,?"
Between bites of the pasta I was eating I casually shrugged and said "no ."
The same view holds true now
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Post by valentine on Sept 9, 2006 22:14:50 GMT -5
I didn't get a chance to read thru this thread. But I agree 100%. We need to learn something about one and other and walk with each other. That doesn't mean that I would question my beliefs....but it would help me to learn something about you all and to access your needs and also my misconceptions. Did you get a chance to read mine? Maybe that can give you a better picture of where I'm coming from. I would love to hear your thoughts/questions.
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Post by oap001 on Sept 9, 2006 22:17:25 GMT -5
I didn't get a chance to read thru this thread. But I agree 100%. We need to learn something about one and other and walk with each other. That doesn't mean that I would question my beliefs....but it would help me to learn something about you all and to access your needs and also my misconceptions. Did you get a chance to read mine? Maybe that can give you a better picture of where I'm coming from. I would love to hear your thoughts/questions. I will read it as soon as I can Val. I must run out....but I will read it. Dale...you have to see your need for a savior. If you don't see that...no one will be able to help you. Also, it's important to go to a good Church. What you discribed scares me!! With the snakes and all.
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Post by dale on Sept 9, 2006 22:35:23 GMT -5
Some of the people I have encountered couldn't have been weirder if I made them up for a book. As for admitting a need for a savior, this just isn't gonna happen. As for church, churches bore me. I had my fill of them with the above incident.
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Post by oap001 on Sept 10, 2006 1:26:08 GMT -5
Alright, so I have a free moment, and I've decided to type this up. I hope that it will help members better understand me and where I am coming from. I welcome any comments or questions. Also, bear in mind that this is what I recall to the best of my ability, especially when my early childhood is concerned. My mother is a liberal Baptist and my father was raised in the Catholic church but is now an atheist. I am agnostic. I have a younger sister who does not really know what she believes, and I have not pressured her, though I suspect her beliefs are similar to my own. So yes, I am neither a Christian nor a member of any organized religion, as I do not believe that the existence/non-existence of god(s) can be proven. If you're going to stop reading here and yell things at me about repenting and "the way, the truth and the light," that's your prerogative, but please be mindful that that defeats the purpose of this thread just slightly. When I was very young, I attended my mother's church regularly with my immediate family. My father, I believe, went along with the idea to make my mother happy (and continues to do so today, somewhat, though he's not quite so willing as I remember from fifteen years ago). I never thought what I was doing was quite right--when I would ask questions about why we were there, the answers I received seemed unfounded and ridiculous to me. From what I can remember, I found the idea of the Judeo-Christian "god" unsettling and improbable, especially the simplistic way with which I was being taught (y'know, the typical, "smiling bearded man" concept--I don't think I bought that for an instant, even as a five year old). I do vividly remember being upset very much by the crucifixion of Jesus; I thought it was horrible and wished that I could save him, in the same way that I had wanted to stop Lincoln from being assassinated later in my life. It was definitely one of my fantasies at age five/six/seven. I hated injustice. I really hated seeing good people hurt. Still, I got very tired of my mother's church very quickly. When I was seven, I announced that I hated it and didn't want to go anymore because they taught me lies and wouldn't answer my questions (and because I had to wear itchy dresses ). Both of my parents respected my wishes and after that, I stayed home with my father whenever possible. Shortly after, my family mostly stopped going to church except for holidays. I remained blissfully ignorant of religion for a few more years, save some brushes with the wonders of hypocrisy. I recall an incident when I was eight when a friend and I were eating oreos, and she told me that if I loved Jesus, I would give her my cookies. I gave them to her because of course I loved Jesus, and was still very upset by the whole crucifixion deal, and, well, if Jesus wanted me to give Lindsey my oreos then it was the least I could do to make up for such injustice. As an adolescent, I had problems with being bullied: I was painfully shy, extremely intelligent but incredibly naive...not a good combination for the shark tank of middle school. I remember being manipulated into doing assignments for people, promised that they would be my friend if I did, etc. I referred to the other kids as my "so-called" friends, called my books and teachers my "real friends," and was probably clinically depressed. Obviously, this worried my parents, and that's what led them to send me to a newish Catholic high school they'd heard about. My father obviously was skeptical, but the reasoning behind the move was that it was a small school (about two hundred students) that was touted for its camaraderie among the students, the reputable honor code, and the quality of education. I had just turned fourteen. Transferring schools was my decision--I was not coerced whatsoever. I thought I would meet people like myself there, who wanted to learn and be challenged and would be my real friends. I guess even smart people can be wrong. I will not name this institution here for privacy reasons. Let's call it X. I spent two years attending X, and received for my trouble the greatest challenge to my worth as a person that I have yet to experience. When I first went to X, I had never really given much thought to what I believed. I had even entertained the notion that perhaps their beliefs would make sense to me and I would become Catholic--so do not think that I went into this hostile. Indeed, I very much wanted to "convert" to be accepted--and it sickens me to admit that because today I am a person who prides herself on never giving in to peer pressure. I had spent so much of my life as an outcast that I would have believed anything if I thought it would get me "real friends." I went to X wishing I could be Catholic. The environment there was dictatorial, vicious and belittling. We were repeatedly told that we were "sinners," "worms," "dirt," "trash," etc in the eyes of god. When my lack of religion was discovered, I was ostracized, not by students, but by the teachers and staff. I don't think there was a day of those two years that I was not told I was going to hell. I could tell more stories about this place than anyone here would have the time to read. Once, a girl was told that she was "vain" because she had pretty, long hair, and insulted to the point where she broke down sobbing in the middle of the classroom. We were not allowed to say the word "hot" (as in "s/he's hot") and received detention if we were caught using it. Wearing the wrong color socks was grounds for detention as well. In detention, we were to write an essay about what we did and why it was wrong (I never received one, for the record). My sophomore year, about twenty students were expelled for various reasons, sexual orientation among them, and were called "the cancer of the school." Even the ones who did follow their narrow brand of religion were emotionally abused in this manner, so I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions about how I was treated. The school board nearly ruined my sixteenth birthday, actually, by spreading around a meeting that my parents attended out of protest to how I was being treated. Basically the parents were told about the supposedly confidential meeting, and as a result told their children not to attend my birthday party. I remember running down the walking path in my neighborhood, collapsing in the middle of a bridge overlooking our creek, and sobbing, screaming things about how it wasn't fair and how could such awful people exist. The entire experience was a shocker in every sense: I had assumed people were good. I found out about the darker side. At that point, fortunately, something clicked within me. I realized that these people were not me, they didn't control me, they didn't determine what I did with my life. Everybody knows the saying that you can't control what happens to you, but you can control how you react to it: my father told me this often when I was younger, and at that moment, I finally believed it. For my sixteenth birthday, I received The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand from my (strongly Christian) grandparents. There was no other book I needed more. I burried myself in it and realized that I could take my life back. By force, if necessary. Because I deserved it: I was amazing, not the scum that the people at X had told me I was for two years. That day, I took the first, small step on the road to loving myself again. They say you have to break something down before it is truly strong. They're right. Going to X taught me the most important lesson I've ever learned: what I was not. It took time, though. I went through some bad periods, particularly an antagonistic phase when I was angry at Christianity in general. I hated their religion. If this was religion, I wanted no part of it. I said some things I shouldn't have said to lots of different people, and rejected all religion, spurning it totally and refusing to learn any more. I had to reevaluate that, obviously. I went back and learned about many different belief systems, without the bias of X this time, after I had progressed to the point where saying the world "religion" didn't produce a knee-jerk reaction of nausea. And I managed to find out about myself, what I did believe. I have all but closed the door on the Judeo-Christian god at this point, as you might guess, but I won't rule out anything when I truly believe that we cannot know. My two years at X were the hardest of my life. But I do not regret one day of it. X was the first step, the catalyst, and though it was painful, it made me the better person. I would do it all again because it shaped who I am today. And you know what? If a supreme being exists, I bet it sent me there for a reason. And if it doesn't like who I became because of my time there, then it should have thought about that six years ago. This is why I do not worry about the condition of my "soul." I know I have done my best. I know that I am proud of what I have accomplished and of the person I am today. I am not ashamed of myself and do not apologize-- because I have done my best. So that's my story. And if going to X is the worst thing that ever happens to me, I am pretty darn lucky in comparison to what others have endured. I realize every day how fortunate I am, and give thanks to the people in my life who make it possible for me to be so happy. Further discussion is more than welcome, either here or through AIM/PM. I hope some of this helped you to better understand where I'm coming from. In another post, I might attempt to define exactly how I try to live my life and who/what I learn from. Val, Thanks so much for posting your story. It has helped me to better understand you. Sorry it took me so long to read it. I was a little tied up. Not literally.....I will think on this over night and hopefully this is the start of us all walking together.
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Post by oap001 on Sept 10, 2006 1:27:36 GMT -5
Some of the people I have encountered couldn't have been weirder if I made them up for a book. As for admitting a need for a savior, this just isn't gonna happen. As for church, churches bore me. I had my fill of them with the above incident. In all seriouness....lucky for you that God's Word is like a hammer that breaks the rock to pieces. You can be broken by God Dale.
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Post by dale on Sept 10, 2006 7:14:23 GMT -5
Broken by god? Again the tyrant king strikes. This is what I fail to get. When someone pisses all over me I do not say "Thank you, that's great, let me have some more." I either get away from them or retaliate in the same negative manner and give him a dose of his own medicine. The idea oif God punishing people in order to break them makes no sense. No one voluntarily serves a tyrant. Gid doing nothing for me (at this point you are supposed to say indignantly "Did nothing for you! He sent his son to die for you!?) or pulling the JOB test (and this was stuff he pulled on someone who loved him, just to win a bet) where he piles misery upon misery upon me, is not gonna make me turn to him. It is gonna make me shake my fist at him and curse his name all the more. It is not gonna make me love him. This strategy is hardly becoiming a deity that knows everything, but more on par with the misguided martyrs in the Open Air Outreach.
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Post by dale on Sept 10, 2006 9:34:10 GMT -5
I finally discovered the "modify" and have fixed the typos on the testimony but going through every single post I have made to do so is not logically possible, due to time.
Someone could have pointed the use of the modify link to me earlier.
Jesus would have told me about it if he logged on to this page!
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Post by dale on Sept 10, 2006 10:48:58 GMT -5
Don'r feel left out, Valentine, as The Patriot here wants to take a walk with me too. I don't know, but it sounds a little too much like something Chevy or whatever it is would have run into in that bar he was in last week!!!!!!!
Like The Patriot or not, in seriousness though, you have to give him credit for posting for us and trying to explain why he is the way he is. My question is, where are all the others? They have an opportunity to witness here, beyond the routine parables and grandstanding, to let us see who they are and why, which I think says a lot more than just rambling off 100 biblical quotes, yet they sadly, again, refuse to do so. As for your testimony in reverse, as to why like me, you are not a christian, Valentine, I found this much more sincere than much of the postering I see on this board, hear in the churches or on the streets. You remind me of a younger version of my own wife, with your particular background. Myw ife, however, is not so inclined to log onto this board, but there are a lot of similarities. I can udnerstand your way of thinking and your philosophy.
Sadly, to many on this baord we are roughly the same as a notch on the gun of a gunfighter in a n old western film, one more soul to pull out of hell and nothing more. Great to know to the bulk of thes people you are nothing but the small part of a bigger head count, huh!
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Post by oap001 on Sept 10, 2006 16:46:06 GMT -5
Broken by god? Again the tyrant king strikes. This is what I fail to get. When someone pisses all over me I do not say "Thank you, that's great, let me have some more." I either get away from them or retaliate in the same negative manner and give him a dose of his own medicine. The idea oif God punishing people in order to break them makes no sense. No one voluntarily serves a tyrant. Gid doing nothing for me (at this point you are supposed to say indignantly "Did nothing for you! He sent his son to die for you!?) or pulling the JOB test (and this was stuff he pulled on someone who loved him, just to win a bet) where he piles misery upon misery upon me, is not gonna make me turn to him. It is gonna make me shake my fist at him and curse his name all the more. It is not gonna make me love him. This strategy is hardly becoiming a deity that knows everything, but more on par with the misguided martyrs in the Open Air Outreach. Was it Lot who lost his entire family and was laid on a sick bed and said, "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...blessed be the name of the Lord". Some day maybe God will lay your wife on a sick bed?? Will you see your need for Him then?? And you know death was brought into the world by sin. Not God...
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Post by oap001 on Sept 10, 2006 17:02:33 GMT -5
Val, Still thinking on your post. But since you said you would like comments, I'll share with you what is on my mind. Firstly, I think there are a lot of people like you out there. You didn't grow up in a Christian home. You have to admitt...the Catholic Church is an entirely different religion that Bible believing Christianity. I've heard of Catholic guilt. And this is a perfect example that sacramental good works and making people feel "guilt" is harmful. The Gospel is that Christ can set you free from sin. He doesn't leave you shackled to an institution where you have to remain embonded to "their" priest's and such for salvation. It's a very destructive man made entity. I can understand how you feel liberated from that. I want to point out that being in this institution...you have not learned about the God of the Bible. So you may be liberated from the RCC. But you still haven't met the real Jesus. Sin has a conquence...your a young person and I believe that you are in search for truth. Your in college and you "feel" free. But sooner or later, if not already, you will become unsatisfied by whatever it is in your life that you are making your god. Build you house on the Rock and when the storms of life come you will not fall. I'm gonna really pray that you will begin to understand this concept. For here is where truth and grace is.
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Post by valentine on Sept 10, 2006 17:20:22 GMT -5
Firstly, I think there are a lot of people like you out there. You didn't grow up in a Christian home. Yes, I did. My mother was a Southern Baptist, as is every other member of her side of the family. My father's side lives in Florida and we never speak to them (whole 'nother story). He completely defers to my mother as far as the religious discussion goes, partially 'cos he doesn't give a rat's rear and partially 'cos he doesn't want a fight (good decision, IMO; my mom can be really hard to deal with on religion). I grew up going to Sunday school every week until I was seven and told them I didn't want to go any more. I'm around the Baptist faith every day, when I'm at home, and completely go along with it, especially in the presence of the young children in our family. I'm not out to start fights. I won't comment on Catholicism versus Protestantism versus etc. They're all different variations on the same theme in my eyes. Do I feel free? No, of course not. I'm not even free to have a credit card in my name. =P Am I free from religion? Yes. It hasn't haunted me for over four years. More questions are welcome.
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