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Post by valentine on Apr 18, 2006 13:07:28 GMT -5
I am posting this in a new thread because it was very off topic for the Easter thread, and because I want as many people to read it as possible. Jules just said something that I think all of the "non-heathens" should read. Just curious as to how you guys think about this - and for the record, can you guys let me know what your backgrounds are so I can understand where you are coming from better? I guess this should be in another thread - maybe I will move it. I agree it sounds like a question for another thread (which is why I've created one). But kudos to you, and I mean that sincerely, because this is the first post ever on this board that has actually expressed any concern or curiosity at all about who I am, what I believe, why I believe it and what happened in my life to cause me to believe it. And consequently, you're currently the only person on this board (that I disagree with) who I would even consider taking seriously. Actually, let me quote this again, just to make sure that all the admins and "regulars" got it: can you guys let me know what your backgrounds are so I can understand [/i][/u]where you are coming from better?[/quote] Jesse, Miles, Rev K, Josh, Evanschaible, etc, etc: I hope you read that. I hope you read it very, very carefully. Yelling at people to repent in all caps will make them laugh at you. Genuinely caring about their personal situations and wanting to learn will make them listen to you. Thank you, Jules. I would be happy to answer any of your questions here. And with that, I'd like to open this discussion to everyone: why do you believe what you believe? What events in your life caused you to believe this? This is for members of all creeds, by the way. Let's take this as an opportunity to listen and understand.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 18, 2006 13:10:48 GMT -5
My question to you guys (not sure if you are atheists, agnostics, or what you consider yourselves) would be: If you were God (even if you don't belive in Him) how would you have gone about "revealing yourself" to those you created? WHat do you think God's motive for creating anyone would have been? Just curious as to how you guys think about this - and for the record, can you guys let me know what your backgrounds are so I can understand where you are coming from better? I guess this should be in another thread - maybe I will move it. Well to speak to my background, I am probably best described as agnostic, although I was raised United Methodist. So contrary to what many on this board believe, I am not "Biblical illiterate." Now, I know this sounds like a cop-out, but because I am agnostic, I cannot and will not speculate on the mind of a being which may or not be and which, assuming existence, is not understandable to my mind, in any case. I do not know what God's motive was. I do not think that God's motive matters. It is my task to live a good and rewarding life (which I judge as being as compassionate as possible) regardless of a final reward or punishment. To reiterate earlier statements in different threads, if I do something good only to get reward, my motives are impure, which is possibly worse than doing nothing. Why is it important for God, if God exists, to reveal Godself to us? If it is so that we have something to worship, what does that say about God's motives? Wouldn't that just make God concieted and egotistical? If it was to allow us to find some higher meaning, does that mean that we cannot do it in the world that God created? Why wouldn't God just build meaning into the system? On another note, you've probably noticed that I do not use pronouns when referring to the God concept. I do not think that God can be defined so as to limit God's characteristics to those we are aware of. If God is a being, God doesn't fit the stereotype of male or female, regardless of what the Bible says on that issue. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the Bible is one culture's understanding of the human condition, it is not absolute, complete, or perfect.
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Post by valentine on Apr 18, 2006 13:14:28 GMT -5
Trekker: 1. That was beautiful. 2. I did not by any means wish to steal your thunder by creating this thread, just so you know--I think Jules posed two separate questions that both merited their own threads, and this was the one that I was interested in. I'd definitely like to see both threads garner discussion! EDIT: And actually, I'm almost afraid that certain posters will take your discussion about agnosticism as license to start the capslock demands to repent. The purpose of this thread is to understand each other, not to convince or argue or even "heckle." I hope that other posters will recognize this in their responses.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 18, 2006 13:17:17 GMT -5
No problem, you didn't steal my thunder, you just echoed it.
Actually, I had already created a thread, pretty much simultaneously with you. I deleted mine and reposted my response here.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 18, 2006 16:41:01 GMT -5
Yes Trekker, that was a beautiful post. Thank you for sharing.
I agree with what you said about limiting the Creator to a "he" or "she" gender type, but I have been known to refer to God as "she" because it just makes the language easier. I imagine that if God had a gender it would be female, as women are the ones that bring new life into our world, and I often call her the Divine Mother, Mother Creator, etc. This is irrelevant however, because the idea of God having gender is ridiculous really. Calling God "her" may make my own human understanding easier, but I acknowledge that it is inaccurate to do so. Anyway, obviously I do believe in God. I've never been particularly found of the term "god" so I often refer to her as the Creator, or some similar name. I believe that it is important to the Creator for all of her children to live meaningful lives and to love one another. This is why she has gifted us all with an inner conscience and the capacity to seek knowledge and understanding of the world around us. Through seeking knowledge we grow to understand one another as human beings and we grow as a whole. Because all human beings are different and learn and grow in different ways, I believe that the Creator has provided multiple paths to enlightenment or understanding of the universe. History and culture have nurtured these paths and developed them into the different world views and religions that we see today. All of these philosophies and views have merit and one can learn valuable things about life and the world from all of them. No one of them is more valuable or accurate than another.
I personally adhere to two main schools of thought, or faith systems, or what have you. I was raised in the Protestant (Southern Baptist) Christian church and was a "born again Christian" for some time. After a few years of study under this faith, I became very disillusioned with the church and with the people in it, but not with it's teacher, Jesus. I began delving deeper into the teachings of Jesus of Nazereth, and I have learned so much from him. While I am still personally unsure if he was in fact the so called "Son of God," I really don't think that matters as much as people seem to think it does. He taught love, compassion, respect and understanding for one's fellow man. He had amazing things to say about how best to live a worthwhile life. Whether he was just a humble human being, or a prophet, or God... seems insignificant to me in comparison with the things he has to teach us. I still look to his teachings for guidance on a regular basis.
Other teachings that I often look to are those of Siddhartha Gautama, or the Buddha. The Eightfold Path to enlightenment is simply beautiful to me. While I disagree with the idea inherent in Buddhist thought that there is no God, I can relate with the fact that it isn't important to Buddhists if there is one or not. I imagine that if, when a Buddhist dies, he arrives in the next place to find that there is a God, he isn't going to be overly plexed. The idea of God simply doesn't tie in to the belief system... it doesn't make any difference really. Buddhism teaches improvement and growth through meditation and self-reliance. God could very well be there, but their presence is of no consequence to the Buddhist.
I also study a lot of Chinese philosophy and Daoist literature, as well as the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita. The whole of the Hindu religion doesn't really appeal to me... but the Bhagavad-Gita has some really beautiful things to say about life in general.
Finally, I have recently begun studying Native American ways of thought and faith. I'm getting in touch with my Cherokee roots. ^_^ I find it amazing how similar some of their stories are to the Christian Bible. Random: Did you know that nearly every single major religion around the world has a flood story? Also, some archeologists recently (a few years ago) found a layer of sediment in about the right spot to be Noah's flood. I love when science backs up theological texts and stories!
So that's me. If you'd like to know more just ask.
PS: I am in solid agreement with Valentine. Thank you for your desire to understand Jules. It is much appreciated. Would you like to share your story? I would be interested to know more about what you believe, and how you came to believe it. This goes for anyone else as well, of course. ^_^
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Post by rsmportland on Apr 18, 2006 19:07:04 GMT -5
I believe the Bible is the perfect word of God. I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, and redeemer of all who trust in Him. I believe Satan is real. I believe hell is real. I believe heaven is real. I believe God is soverign, just, holy, and good. I believe all those without Christ are lost.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 18, 2006 19:49:44 GMT -5
I believe the Bible is the perfect word of God. I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, and redeemer of all who trust in Him. I believe Satan is real. I believe hell is real. I believe heaven is real. I believe God is soverign, just, holy, and good. I believe all those without Christ are lost. But... why do you believe that? I would like to know what led to your decision that that set of beliefs is right for you.
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 18, 2006 20:26:33 GMT -5
I did not grow up in a Christian home at all. My mother went pretty regularly to church on Sunday, but throughout the week she was always drunk and high. I don't know how many times I was disgusted to see my mother watching the TV preachers while she was completely intoxicated. Speaking of the TV preachers they were disgusting enough without my mom. I couldn't stand what I perceived as their phoniness and begging for money. Growing up like this really tainted my view of Christianity and the Bible. I saw it as an escape for the emotionally disabled. I wouldn't have anything to do with Christianity or the Bible except to mock it. I remember a Baptist preacher in a suit walking down our street one day. I looked out the window to see my mom out talking with him. Unfortunately, they saw me and called me out there. The preacher went on and on about Jesus and asked me if I wanted to pray and ask Jesus into my heart. I figured it was the fastest way to get rid of him so I did. He went away happy and I went away laughing. As I got into my teen years I began getting addicted to pornography and I remained that way until I was 21.
When I got out of High School I had no ambition to do anything with my life. I was really depressed because I didn't see the point of life. I had no interest in giving my life for a house, car, TV, etc... It all seemed like a useless pursuit to me. I didn't realize at the time, but I was searching for something more. I began to delve into some eastern religion and new age type stuff. After about a year I was still trying to find something more to life. It was around this time that I decided to pick up a New Testament and read it (For me this was a miracle). As I read through the book of Matthew I was dumbfounded. I thought that I was generally a good person because most of my sin was done in private (unlike my sister who was a stripper and drug addict, or my parents who were alcoholics). As I read the words of Jesus on the sermon of the mount (Matt 5-7) I began to see how ugly my self-righteous pride really was. I read that Jesus saw lust as adultery and hatred as murder. For the first time in my life I began to see myself the way God saw me. That's when I began to experience for the first time what the Bible calls the fear of the Lord.
I had not gone to church or talked with anyone about any of this at this time. I was simply reading the Scriptures on my own. I became convinced from the Bible that I was wicked and if I were to die I would end up in Hell (again according to Jesus in the sermon on the mount). That was the first time in my life that I acknowledge the truth about who I am and where I'm headed. I decided to go to church and while at a church the Sunday School teacher mentioned repentance. After the class I asked what that meant. He explained that it meant to turn from a life of sin to God. He then took me to an altar and I repented before God. This prayer was real unlike the one before. At first I didn't understand how to tell I was really forgiven by God and at peace with him. The Christians in the church would tell me I was, but that wasn't good enough for me. It was over the next several weeks that I realized that I had been transformed. I tried to put in a pornographic video about a week after my conversion and it was the last time I ever did that again. I couldn't watch it anymore. I knew that I couldn't watch that and have a relationship with God too. I began to notice that I had great quantities of sin in my life. These included pride, criticalness, lust, lying, swearing, etc... God began cleaning my life of all the filth that had been acquired from years of living a perverse life. On top of that I've had to let God in to deal with the deeper heart issues that no one else sees. The insecurity, unforgiveness, anger at not having a Father around, rejection, etc...
That was over 9 years ago and I've only gone further in Christ from there. I can't even recognize the person I used to be. I have been heavily persecuted by many in my family because of the change in my heart and life, but the fire God has given me has only grown stronger. I'm now about to enter the ministry to bring others to Christ. Anyone who knew me 9 years ago would be astounded that this is what I'm doing with my life. I was the least likely candidate to ever be a Christian or a minister.
That's my story in a nutshell. I didn't really go into my beliefs or why, but that's maybe for another time.
Steve
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Post by Morluna on Apr 18, 2006 21:06:47 GMT -5
Nice post Steve. Thank you so much for sharing your story. ^_^
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Post by valentine on Apr 19, 2006 8:33:44 GMT -5
I agree--thank you, Steve, for being so open. This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to foster here. I definitely hear you on the hypocrisy and the asking-for-money; these were some of the things that served to disillusion me as far as organized religion is concerned. I have not pretended to pray since I was very young, however. If asked today, I'll politely explain that I do not do that sort of thing. Interestingly, another good friend of mine also talked about the feelings of anxiety she struggled with in her concerns over where her soul was 'headed.' This seems to be common. Nevertheless, I am glad you changed your life in a way that you are happy with. That's what we're all after: to make ourselves the best people we can, in any way we can. Morluna, I already know a great deal of your story, obviously, from knowing you personally, but thank you for responding here. I have always admired the way you've managed to assimilate such different aspects of your spiritual life in a way you are comfortable with, even in the face of such horrors as the church you were raised in. I try to do that myself, actually, and am planning on giving many more details when I respond to this post. One of my favorite people online refers to god as "she" and I've always loved that. Also, I believe I've said this to you before, but I like your interpretation of the concept of god: if there's one I could get behind, it would be something like yours. You seem to have a very unitarian, "it's all the same thing and that thing is love" outlook on religion, which I think allows you to be so accomodating in what you believe and incorporate such vastly different codes. That's kind of how I'd imagined god, honestly, assuming one exists: too broad an idea to be nailed down by such narrow definitions that humanity could provide. I don't have time to respond to this question as I only have a few minutes before I have to go to class, but rest assured that I will be answering it and sharing.
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Post by valentine on Apr 19, 2006 11:05:22 GMT -5
Alright, so I have a free moment, and I've decided to type this up. I hope that it will help members better understand me and where I am coming from. I welcome any comments or questions. Also, bear in mind that this is what I recall to the best of my ability, especially when my early childhood is concerned. My mother is a liberal Baptist and my father was raised in the Catholic church but is now an atheist. I am agnostic. I have a younger sister who does not really know what she believes, and I have not pressured her, though I suspect her beliefs are similar to my own. So yes, I am neither a Christian nor a member of any organized religion, as I do not believe that the existence/non-existence of god(s) can be proven. If you're going to stop reading here and yell things at me about repenting and "the way, the truth and the light," that's your prerogative, but please be mindful that that defeats the purpose of this thread just slightly. When I was very young, I attended my mother's church regularly with my immediate family. My father, I believe, went along with the idea to make my mother happy (and continues to do so today, somewhat, though he's not quite so willing as I remember from fifteen years ago). I never thought what I was doing was quite right--when I would ask questions about why we were there, the answers I received seemed unfounded and ridiculous to me. From what I can remember, I found the idea of the Judeo-Christian "god" unsettling and improbable, especially the simplistic way with which I was being taught (y'know, the typical, "smiling bearded man" concept--I don't think I bought that for an instant, even as a five year old). I do vividly remember being upset very much by the crucifixion of Jesus; I thought it was horrible and wished that I could save him, in the same way that I had wanted to stop Lincoln from being assassinated later in my life. It was definitely one of my fantasies at age five/six/seven. I hated injustice. I really hated seeing good people hurt. Still, I got very tired of my mother's church very quickly. When I was seven, I announced that I hated it and didn't want to go anymore because they taught me lies and wouldn't answer my questions (and because I had to wear itchy dresses ). Both of my parents respected my wishes and after that, I stayed home with my father whenever possible. Shortly after, my family mostly stopped going to church except for holidays. I remained blissfully ignorant of religion for a few more years, save some brushes with the wonders of hypocrisy. I recall an incident when I was eight when a friend and I were eating oreos, and she told me that if I loved Jesus, I would give her my cookies. I gave them to her because of course I loved Jesus, and was still very upset by the whole crucifixion deal, and, well, if Jesus wanted me to give Lindsey my oreos then it was the least I could do to make up for such injustice. As an adolescent, I had problems with being bullied: I was painfully shy, extremely intelligent but incredibly naive...not a good combination for the shark tank of middle school. I remember being manipulated into doing assignments for people, promised that they would be my friend if I did, etc. I referred to the other kids as my "so-called" friends, called my books and teachers my "real friends," and was probably clinically depressed. Obviously, this worried my parents, and that's what led them to send me to a newish Catholic high school they'd heard about. My father obviously was skeptical, but the reasoning behind the move was that it was a small school (about two hundred students) that was touted for its camaraderie among the students, the reputable honor code, and the quality of education. I had just turned fourteen. Transferring schools was my decision--I was not coerced whatsoever. I thought I would meet people like myself there, who wanted to learn and be challenged and would be my real friends. I guess even smart people can be wrong. I will not name this institution here for privacy reasons. Let's call it X. I spent two years attending X, and received for my trouble the greatest challenge to my worth as a person that I have yet to experience. When I first went to X, I had never really given much thought to what I believed. I had even entertained the notion that perhaps their beliefs would make sense to me and I would become Catholic--so do not think that I went into this hostile. Indeed, I very much wanted to "convert" to be accepted--and it sickens me to admit that because today I am a person who prides herself on never giving in to peer pressure. I had spent so much of my life as an outcast that I would have believed anything if I thought it would get me "real friends." I went to X wishing I could be Catholic. The environment there was dictatorial, vicious and belittling. We were repeatedly told that we were "sinners," "worms," "dirt," "trash," etc in the eyes of god. When my lack of religion was discovered, I was ostracized, not by students, but by the teachers and staff. I don't think there was a day of those two years that I was not told I was going to hell. I could tell more stories about this place than anyone here would have the time to read. Once, a girl was told that she was "vain" because she had pretty, long hair, and insulted to the point where she broke down sobbing in the middle of the classroom. We were not allowed to say the word "hot" (as in "s/he's hot") and received detention if we were caught using it. Wearing the wrong color socks was grounds for detention as well. In detention, we were to write an essay about what we did and why it was wrong (I never received one, for the record). My sophomore year, about twenty students were expelled for various reasons, sexual orientation among them, and were called "the cancer of the school." Even the ones who did follow their narrow brand of religion were emotionally abused in this manner, so I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions about how I was treated. The school board nearly ruined my sixteenth birthday, actually, by spreading around a meeting that my parents attended out of protest to how I was being treated. Basically the parents were told about the supposedly confidential meeting, and as a result told their children not to attend my birthday party. I remember running down the walking path in my neighborhood, collapsing in the middle of a bridge overlooking our creek, and sobbing, screaming things about how it wasn't fair and how could such awful people exist. The entire experience was a shocker in every sense: I had assumed people were good. I found out about the darker side. At that point, fortunately, something clicked within me. I realized that these people were not me, they didn't control me, they didn't determine what I did with my life. Everybody knows the saying that you can't control what happens to you, but you can control how you react to it: my father told me this often when I was younger, and at that moment, I finally believed it. For my sixteenth birthday, I received The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand from my (strongly Christian) grandparents. There was no other book I needed more. I burried myself in it and realized that I could take my life back. By force, if necessary. Because I deserved it: I was amazing, not the scum that the people at X had told me I was for two years. That day, I took the first, small step on the road to loving myself again. They say you have to break something down before it is truly strong. They're right. Going to X taught me the most important lesson I've ever learned: what I was not. It took time, though. I went through some bad periods, particularly an antagonistic phase when I was angry at Christianity in general. I hated their religion. If this was religion, I wanted no part of it. I said some things I shouldn't have said to lots of different people, and rejected all religion, spurning it totally and refusing to learn any more. I had to reevaluate that, obviously. I went back and learned about many different belief systems, without the bias of X this time, after I had progressed to the point where saying the world "religion" didn't produce a knee-jerk reaction of nausea. And I managed to find out about myself, what I did believe. I have all but closed the door on the Judeo-Christian god at this point, as you might guess, but I won't rule out anything when I truly believe that we cannot know. My two years at X were the hardest of my life. But I do not regret one day of it. X was the first step, the catalyst, and though it was painful, it made me the better person. I would do it all again because it shaped who I am today. And you know what? If a supreme being exists, I bet it sent me there for a reason. And if it doesn't like who I became because of my time there, then it should have thought about that six years ago. This is why I do not worry about the condition of my "soul." I know I have done my best. I know that I am proud of what I have accomplished and of the person I am today. I am not ashamed of myself and do not apologize-- because I have done my best. So that's my story. And if going to X is the worst thing that ever happens to me, I am pretty darn lucky in comparison to what others have endured. I realize every day how fortunate I am, and give thanks to the people in my life who make it possible for me to be so happy. Further discussion is more than welcome, either here or through AIM/PM. I hope some of this helped you to better understand where I'm coming from. In another post, I might attempt to define exactly how I try to live my life and who/what I learn from.
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Tony Cruz
Full Member
Be on fire for God and people will come out to see you burn!
Posts: 107
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Post by Tony Cruz on Apr 19, 2006 11:45:23 GMT -5
I was born into a "christian" home. My testimony is quite long but very interesting b/c i know that probably many in this board has had the same experience. When i was young i would be obligated to go church, never had any interest but to be with my friends. The church my parents and i attended split and my mother and i went to another church while my father stayed. This was very frustrating and confusing so i was old enough to decide not to go to church. At the age of 18 i began to experiment with alcohol,sex and drugs which i enjoyed doing, my mother would pray for me continually. At the age of 25 i would wonder if i should continue in this life of sin. I saught to become one with the universe and to center my being with life's energy through meditation and ocasionaly chanting, all the while knowing that it was wrong, not b/c my mom said it but b/c my conscience said that i was not becoming one with God but one that i made in my own image. Nevertheless i continued in this journey. I got a job in a lumber yard and one of the guys was a christian and he spoke to me about accepting Jesus as my Savior and in the small knowledge that i thought i had i spoke to him about the things of God. Well later on i went to his church "got saved", baptized and continually went to church and was on fire for God and the pastor would even include me in the sermons as an illustration of how we should want God in ourlives(which i never liked him doing). Then i was hated at work b/c i was talking to much about Jesus, never preached repentance to them but that certain things in their lives must change( basically bad habits) b/c that the reason i came to Christ was for a decent lifestyle and without the outward sins b/c within me lurked the darkest of sins. This church also split b/c the pastor was engaged in financial matters that i dont know about for which the Lord gave me a word of warning for the pastor which he did not like and i was expelled from the church, not physically but emotionally and now his sermons was aiming toward the words that i spoke to him which drove those members against me i was like a leper in there misdst once i sat in the front pew and little by little went towards the back until i felt that i must go then later finding out that the messege that i gave the pastor was true. Anyways i moved on going from church to church finding out that they all were doing the same thing, NOTHING. I went to the navy at the age of 28. Very hard to be a witness for Christ under a leadership of rude behavior and language, soon enough i began to drift from my walk not my belief b/c i still believe that Jesus died for me i just wasnt living for him. So began to drink,go out dancing, sex drugs until it got so bad that i did not want to be in the navy so i escaped and used drugs to turn myself in so that they would have to kick me out which they did and all along that i was doing these things my conscience telling me that i should repent, but i continued. When i was kicked out of the navy i decided to live for God again so i confessed my sins and i began to look for a church and i got married to a beautiful women and now have a beautiful daughter and her name is Hosanna. Sorry i had to mention them b/c they are a blessing, anyways i was your on fire no comprimising, no watered down , speaking in toungues christian, so i thought until i came across the Law of God. The Ten Commandments brought everything into perspective about why Jesus needed to die and why i need a Savior. When i looked into the "mirror" Ten Commandments i saw that i deserve Hell b/c there is nothing good inside me b/c even my most kindest gesture was done out of selfishness and it looked good to me and those who saw me but to God it was sin, why is it sin b/c the bible says that anything that is done without faith it is sin. So then as i looked at the mirror i saw how sinful my sins really was until this point i did not know why i needed a Savior other than to go to Heaven and not that He was saving me from my sins that was an offense to God. I look at my daughter and see what my wife and i have made together and i cant imagine this child turning from us in total disobidience, my thought would be that we have given you everything we possibly could so that you can be happy and now you have completly rebelled against us, so what do we do? we must be firm and correct this, wel that is exactly what i did with God. I believe what i believe now b/c it makes sense that a just judge must punish sin and there is nothing i can do to merit his forgiveness other than His Son dying for me taking my place on the cross and if He didnt take His place on the cross my place would be Hell. And i'm not afraid of Hell so much as to hurt and offend God the Father. The bible refers to God as Father so that we can understand the relationship, but God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. so in conclusion even as i was someone who a person would look at as a christian i was being fooled by my own heart as one accepted by God. The bible says to check and see if you are in the faith, there is a growth in the christian walk and we must be getting better not worse we must strive to be holy and righteous like Jesus if we are not striving or if that is not our mindset then i would say check and see if you are in the faith.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 19, 2006 19:49:19 GMT -5
Oh goodness.... my favorite topic, but such a long one to go into, as we've seen with the numerous long posts ^_^
Alright... here goes!
For many years I was what I guess you would call agnostic. I was raised by a father who never had much to say about religion-based beliefs. He did teach me many many many things about being a good person. Southern gentry. You don't need a reason to do good. Money does grow on trees and you can always earn more, so it's okay to share the wealth from time to time =) lol, but that doesn't mean we have a lot of money - my dad still works hard to this day
My mother is a member of the Methodist church, though she's tried practically everything (almost every Christian denomination) and always encouraged her kids to explore everything. If I showed an interest in anything, she supported me. She also set a big example of being strong.
My grandmother lived with us until January of 2004, when she passed away, bless her heart. When I was little she read stories to me - from the Bible, from Aesop's fables (still one of my favorite books to this day), and many things that contain great wisdom. I can never be thankful enough for all that growing up with her did for me.
But basically, that sums up my pre-college background. I wasn't raised in the church - it wasn't convenient to my bed-ridden grandmother and my parents didn't believe a church was neccessary.
Now, since coming to a liberal-Baptist college I've exploded with furthering my beliefs. The resources are here and it's always meant a lot to me, I just didn't realize it.
Most of it has built off of a foundation of love and the heart. I believe those are some of the basics of being a good person.
Now let's see if I can break things down and build up from there....
Yes, there is a God. I personally think it's a sign of ingratitude to not recognize that there is something greater than you that brought you into being. Whether a 'natural force' or a divine being, that's God.
Do I have a personal relationship with God? By most people's definition, no. It's not uncommon for me to redefine things, though =) I like to think of my relationship with God as that of a child raised by a parent. The parent has provided the child with everything it needs and now it's time for the child to grow up and learn to walk alone. Does that mean that the parent isn't there, ready to catch the child if they need help? No. But I do believe in trying to be strong (yes, which I probably get from my mother) and trying to walk alone.
This brings us to another part of my relationship with God. I don't pray and ask for anything. Not one thing. I think God has given us Everything we need, we just fail to realize it and often ask for more. It's like accusing God of not making something good enough. I believe that life is perfect - God creates things that are perfect, like him. Also, I've heard it expressed that prayer tends to be its own answer.
Which brings me to gratefulness. If I go to hell today, ok. That's fine. Just coming into existence is enough of a reason to be eternally thankful, nonetheless the fact that I've been shown love in this world. Complaining, asking God for more... that's ingratitude...
Heaven. No. Not that I don't believe in it, but that things outside of life - creation and the end - don't pertain to life itself. As WanderingTrekker expressed, I think doing things for the reward is the greatest sin. Mainly because it tends to be the one that is missed.
I get accused of making things too simple. But you know, that only makes things more difficult. You know what, though? The difficult things are the ones that are usually worth doing. That's why I'm here on these boards - it challenges me and makes me refine and even redefine what I think.
Oh ya... back to the college topic I started umpteen paragraphs ago, I'm persuing a Christianity minor. Old Testament and New Testament have been rewarding experiences. I don't consider myself Christian, but I can't forget that my environment is one of Christianity. That's another reason why I sometimes attempt to justify things through the Bible - it's part of my enviroment, at the least.
World Religions was an amazing class. I loved learning about all of the different viewpoints. I like to read into All religions and see what wisdom they have to offer. And hey, who knows, maybe I'll subscribe to one of 'em. Not likely, but not impossible ^_-
I attend Wesley Foundation, a Methodist worship group. One of my best friends had me attend this year because I wanted to get more involved on campus. It turned out that most of the people I'd met on campus that I liked were there! =) I go because they touch on that loving foundation I like. I don't agree with everything they believe, but I support their beliefs.
Ok, I need a break... lol. I'll come back and post more if I need to
Have a great day, all
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Post by Morluna on Apr 19, 2006 20:54:40 GMT -5
Exactly the same reason why I'm here. ^_^
Plus I've met so many awesome people! I love you guys! *hugs*
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Post by darcfollowingjesus on Apr 22, 2006 10:33:59 GMT -5
My Story... God...I've always known He exists. The why behind that is His Word says He does and always has. When I look around this awesome world I live in I am amazed at the creative power that He has. To say that this all just came about by a big bang? ? I weep for those who are that deceived. I grew up with religion and Christianity all around me. Both parents wrestled with this and still do. When I was a teen I rebelled against the truth because I wanted my own way and didn't want to have to toe the line of what someone told me to do. i saw the world and was influenced by peer pressure into a life of sexual depravity and immorality for close to 30 years, by choice. I lived my life for sex. Which led to a life of much misery and a trail of very hurt people behind me. I served myself as the most important matter in life and in doing I had set myself up as god. Due to this I chose a life of seeking all the pleasures of life as we know it. Why? Because I relented to what I wanted. It was all about me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. This went on for a long time. At the same time this was going on there was a different desire going on in me and that was a yearning to come to God. The entire time I was trying everything sexually I knew I was wrong. Not because someone told me I was either, because I had seen psychologists who "treated" me for my "addiction" who told me it was "normal" and I just needed to "curb" it by refocusing my attention. To What??!!? To some unknown "higher being"? Where? who? what? I knew that was wrong. Don't ask me how I knew it, I just knew within me that there was more to it then that. Not because someone told me. I'm going to fast forward now to 3 years ago. The day after one of my sexual encounters I heard the Word of God spoken....... ......and the rest of the story goes like this. My eyes started to open to what my plight was. I saw I was headed for this place called Hell and I was afraid! Don't ask me to explain this because I can't. As my eyes did become open that desire to come to God kicked in at high speed. I turned from all the sin and faced God and cried out for His mercy. At that point I trusted in Jesus to save me through His completed work on the Cross of Calvary. Why? I knew I needed to by that which clicked in me (that YEARNING). I desired His love more than anything at that point and still do to this day and I found it in Jesus. I believe because I believe the Bible to be true and it is the only source of truth that exists. Why? Who else would do what God did for us in His Son? No one. No one. I know that I am to be with my Creator King because that is what He wants for all of us. As my brother said, "I believe the Bible is the perfect word of God. I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, and redeemer of all who trust in Him. I believe Satan is real. I believe hell is real. I believe heaven is real. I believe God is soverign, just, holy, and good. I believe all those without Christ are lost." Why? Because this is what the Bible, the Word of God, says. God spoke it so I believe it.
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Post by Morluna on Apr 23, 2006 15:01:00 GMT -5
Darc, I can definitely relate to the yearning feeling you're talking about. When I know that I need to commune with the Creator, I feel the yearning to pray and meditate. I have always felt a strong connection to the Creator and the need to feel close to Them.
I'm not trying to be critical here... but I'm beginning to see a trend among the doctrinal Christians on this board, and I've noticed this in everyday life as well. The most ardent supporters of the Bible as fact, the ones that are the most fundamentalist, all have very immoral pasts. Jesse was a drug dealer, you say you were unhealthily addicted to sex, others have testified to being wrapped up in all kinds of hateful behavior against their fellows, and generally living lives that made them feel guilty. Then you found Jesus, and were afraid of Hell, so you turned to Christianity. So basically, you were the equivalent of a child knowing he's done something bad and being afraid of being punished for it. I may be incorrect in making this assertion, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or what have you, but it looks to me as if you didn't go to God because you love and want to interact with Them, but because you were scared of them. So... your conversion looks to be a selfish act.
Personally I disagree with a life and belief based on fear of punishment. I don't know that I will be held accountable for anything I do in this life, and whether I am or not is not really important to me. I live by my moral code because I know it is the best way to treat my fellow brethren and it enriches my own life while benefiting the lives of others. I strive to love all and respect all, and all that I ask in return is to be equally loved and respected. The afterlife doesn't play into my morality at all. If I die and go to Hell... okay. As Trekker pointed out in a recent post, it would be selfish of me to ask anything more. The Creator gave me life, how dare I ask for eternity? I don't have that right. If They offer it, okay. But I'm not going to base my life on whether or not that offer is coming. I just don't understand how anyone could.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 23, 2006 17:03:20 GMT -5
Actually, Morluna, that was hopefulheart who said that we had been given so much; that we shouldn't ask for more.
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Post by Jules on Apr 23, 2006 19:33:40 GMT -5
Morluna, I have not had a chance to post my "story" yet but will when I have more time, but to repspond to your observation that the ost fundamentalist Christians (Bible as the authoirty, etc) on this board have sinful pasts, I couls agree with that in some respects. But the fear of the Lord IS the beginning of wisdom as the Bible says. If we simply followed Christ to make our life better, THAT would be foolish. I follow Christ because He literally saved me from an eternity in hell. Some sins may seem "worse" than others, but in reality and in the light of a holy and righteous God, we are all wicked and sinful, there is NONE righteous. So that is the reason we fall on the mercy of God, initially in fear, then in love. The Bible also says that perfect love casts out all fear, and this includes our fear of God. What starts out as fear for being punished for our sins, turns into a love for Him as we realize His great love and mercy for us. WE love because HE first loved us. So there is no other motivation that one can come to a holy God but in fear and trembling. Any other way is self-righteous, and is desrving of punishment. He is the potter, we are the clay. God has already met our greatest need in that His wrath was removed from us (those that believe and repent that is) through Christ's death on the cross. If you have not believed and repented, then God's wrath remains on you. That SHOULD put the fear of God in you. And that is the beginning of wisdom.
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Post by Jules on Apr 23, 2006 19:34:42 GMT -5
sorry for the typos in that last post of mine....lack of sleep this past weekend during an evangelism bootcamp and running on empty as it is - I will be more careful next time
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Post by valentine on Apr 24, 2006 10:18:35 GMT -5
See, I don't think you can have love with fear. Maybe it's just how I am, but I cannot respect someone who does not respect me. Expecting me to be subservient is not respect. I think from reading my post about my childhood, you can understand why any religion that included submission would be very, very unattractive to me--especially submission because I as a person was inherently evil, bad, wrong, etc. That's not a healthy attitude for me. I have no doubt that some people can thrive on it, but it's not my way of finding self-actualization, confidence and worth.
I've also kind of noticed what Morluna mentioned. It almost seems like cognitive dissonance, from my point of view. Perhaps some reasoning why I believe the way I do is because I feel no need to "apologize" for any decisions that I've made--I believe I've made the right ones. And yes, I'm very much aware that I am no more perfect than anyone else. But telling me how I am still a foul sinner is not going to make me despise myself. I spent far too much time doing that before I learned that I wasn't despicable, I wasn't a worm, I wasn't trash...and I didn't have to believe anyone who said otherwise. The only reason I'm on this board discussing these things is because I have firmly put that part of my life behind me. Four years ago, this board would have been a huge trigger for me.
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Post by hopefulheart on Apr 24, 2006 19:31:51 GMT -5
*nibbles Morluna*
Hmm.... I don't think I ever feel God calling me.... but I also think that could be because I keep myself so open to everything that I wouldn't miss any little push or pull that came my way, so how could I tell the flow and ebb of fate and destiny as being any different from anything else? Not that I believe in fate, destiny, or worry about a divine plan, mind you =)
“Faith, it seems to me, is not the holding of certain dogmas; it is simply openness and readiness of the heart to believe any truth which God may show.” --Margaret Deland (thanks Trekker again for all those wonderful quotes)
And I think I could say something similar about not feeling sorry. I still feel sorry when I make a mistake, but more to the point is that I don't carry regrets, though. I mean, if I were meant to be perfect, I would have been made perfect, right? So I learn from my mistakes. Being sorry is accepting you made an error and trying to learn from it.
"Transform regrets into realisations and therefore ensure that what could become waste is made into something worthwhile."
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Post by elwing96 on Apr 24, 2006 20:33:00 GMT -5
Well, since I'm relatively new to the board I'll share a little.
My mother was raised Catholic, but is now..I don't know. I guess agnostic would be the best way to describe her beliefs. My father was raised as a Baptist, but I never saw him go to church unless we were with my paternal grandparents. My sister is considers herself to be a Christian. I am a progressive Christian. I am aware that many of you may not know what that entails.
Wikipedia defines it as "the name given to a movement within American Christianity which promotes social justice as a Christian imperative, and opposes the notion that Christians must necessarily take a politically conservative or 'right-wing' stance on issues such as poverty, racism, and the environment. In doing this, it focuses on biblical injunctions that God's people should live correctly and fight injustice, and seeks to act on those injunctions in the public sphere."
As a child, the longest I ever lived in one town was 4 years. Because of my dad's job we moved every 2 years on average. When my sister was high school aged (she is 2 years older than me) my parents decided to permanently move my mother, sister, and I to one town so my sister and I could go to one high school. My father came home on weekends, when he could. His choice has had certain reprecussions on my relationship with him as well as other men, but I don't want to get into that.
I think maybe I "accepted Christ" when I was five. I vaguely remember being at Vacation Bible School (VBS) at my grandmother's church and saying a prayer because I was bored. I never thought much about it. My parents decided to raise my sister and I in a "secular household." My mother is adamantly opposed to organized religion, and my father concented to not raising us in the Christian Church. The only times I went as a child were with my grandparents and occasionally the elderly women who lived around us would invite my sister and I to go with them.
When I was 13 I went to a Christian event at the urging of my sister, who had been a practicing Christian for a number of years. I think she took it seriously when we went to VBS. A middle-aged woman came up to me durring the "invitation" (the time when they invite the people to accept Christ). I have no idea who she was, and have never seen her since. She asked my if I wanted to get saved and I said yes. In light of that, I cannot turn my back on Christianity. It was a "God thing."
I started going to a Southern Baptist Church regularly, and later became a member. For a long time I questioned my father's faith because he never went to church. I judged him harshly. Because of recent cirumstances I will not get into, I relize how wrong I was.
As a member and leader in my church's youth group, I never fit in. I was never complacent enough. I was never conservative enough.
When I came to college I fully intended to continue going to Church. I had been indoctrinated with a fear of being one of the numbers they talk about when they say X% of Christians reject their faith in college. I started going to Baptist Collegate Ministry, and had the same problem I had in the youth group.
For a while I questioned the existence of God. I could never, and can never, truly reject the concept of a Divine Creator. I have seen and experienced too much for that. What I questioned the most was the Church. Everything in it seemed wrong to me. I could not, and cannot, understand how the Church can be complacent with so much social injustice in the world. I found myself relating more to the politically and socially active atheists than the conservative Christians I was surrounding myself with.
In the 2004 presidental elections, my struggles came to a head. I recieved soo much judgement because I was a Christian, yet did not support Bush. People could not, and cannot, understand how I can believe in Jesus, and not support Bush. I ended up picking up a book by Jim Wallis called God's Politics. Jim Wallis is the founder of Sojourner's, a Christian ministry committed to fighting poverty across the globe. I realized that he and I believed the same things.
I no longer question God. I constantly question the Christians around me. At this point in my life, I'm just trying to educate as many people as possible to the truths that are constantly being covered up. In an odd way, I will not rest until every institution in America has been called into question and forced to reform. I want the whole world to realize that ambiguity is the key to success. It is impossible to hold a constant possition on any issue. The world is fraught w/ grey areas, and the sooner everyone realizes that, the better the world will be.
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Post by wanderingtrekker on Apr 24, 2006 21:38:09 GMT -5
Thank you Elwing, that was very touching. I too see social justice as sorely lacking in our society and around the world. I hope to help right those wrongs after graduation with my career. I thoroughly enjoyed Jim Wallis' book, and recommend it to anyone on the site.
On the topic of social justice: "...A religion true to its nature must also be concerned about man's social conditions. Religion deals with both earth and heaven, both time and eternity. Religion operates not only on the vertical plane but also on the horizontal. It seeks not only to integrate men with God, but to integrate men with men and each man with himself. ...Any religion that professes to be concerned with the souls of men and is not concerned with the slums that d@mn them, the economic conditions that strangle them, and the social conditions that cripple them is a dry-as-dust religion." -Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Post by Jules on Apr 24, 2006 22:39:03 GMT -5
See, I don't think you can have love with fear. Maybe it's just how I am, but I cannot respect someone who does not respect me. Expecting me to be subservient is not respect. I think from reading my post about my childhood, you can understand why any religion that included submission would be very, very unattractive to me--especially submission because I as a person was inherently evil, bad, wrong, etc. That's not a healthy attitude for me. I have no doubt that some people can thrive on it, but it's not my way of finding self-actualization, confidence and worth. And yes, I'm very much aware that I am no more perfect than anyone else. But telling me how I am still a foul sinner is not going to make me despise myself. I spent far too much time doing that before I learned that I wasn't despicable, I wasn't a worm, I wasn't trash...and I didn't have to believe anyone who said otherwise. The only reason I'm on this board discussing these things is because I have firmly put that part of my life behind me. Four years ago, this board would have been a huge trigger for me. Fear and love are intimately connected. Because if we don't fear, we don't love. Every fear you have, if you think about it, is connected to something (or someone) you cherish. Try that on and get back to me on your thoughts.... As far as telling someone they are a foul sinner to make them despise themselves, not sure if that is what you think the motive is by the Christians who preach repentance, but if so, please know that is NOT the motive of the people on this board. Pointing out sin in someone is meant to show them their need. If you don't know you are drowning, why grab for the life jacket? Until you are convinced you are drowning, the life jacket is silly, unnecessary, and worthless. But, once you realize you are drowning (in sin) and about to die (and go to hell) FEAR grips you for a moment, you realize your need to be saved, and you reach out and grasp that life jacket. You never take it off. Are you STILL scared? No. You feel safe now, and the fear is buffeted now by an understanding of GOd's love. Perfect love casts out all fear. Does that make sense?
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Post by Jules on Apr 24, 2006 22:44:32 GMT -5
Personally I disagree with a life and belief based on fear of punishment. I don't know that I will be held accountable for anything I do in this life, and whether I am or not is not really important to me. post, it would be selfish of me to ask anything more. The Creator gave me life, how dare I ask for eternity? I don't have that right. If They offer it, okay. But I'm not going to base my life on whether or not that offer is coming. I just don't understand how anyone could. Morluna, I don't live my life based on fear of punishment. But I had that for a moment, and always remember what it COULD be like if I didn't have faith in Christ and what He did for me so that I wouldn't be punished. My life now is based on gratitude, worship, and love for my Savior and Redeemer. How could it not? Your comment about how God gave you life, how dare you ask for eternity makes me smile. You have more humility than most. That's a good thing. If you ever thought God "owed" you something, I'd be concerned. We don't have any rights. But for whatever reason, God still showed His love for us when we were STILL SINNERS, and sent His Son to die for us. That blows my mind when I think on it. Why in the world would He do that for me? For you? THAT is what motivates me to know GOd more - to understand that character of Him that is a mystery - His goodness, justice, holiness, unending mercies, etc. All of it is so rich, I need never look elsewhere. I pray you will look there as well. And don't fear or fight against taking a look at who you are in God's eyes. Even if you know, somewhere deep down inside, that it must be a horrible sight (because He sees all of us that way when we are in sin, myself included) It is where you must go first before you can understand and appreciate His grace and love for you.
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Post by valentine on Apr 25, 2006 8:52:00 GMT -5
Fear and love are intimately connected. Because if we don't fear, we don't love. Every fear you have, if you think about it, is connected to something (or someone) you cherish. Try that on and get back to me on your thoughts.... I don't understand what this means. I have a sex phobia. Trust me, there's nothing about sex that I cherish. I am afraid of dying. I do cherish life but that's the opposite of death. If you are talking about the fear that something will be taken away, alright, sure, but do I ever actually love something/someone that I fear? That sounds like an abusive relationship to me. Concerning people, trust and mutual respect are non-negotiable for me to really like them. If I have any reason at all to fear you as a person, I will stay as far away from you as possible and will not "love" you under any circumstances. As far as telling someone they are a foul sinner to make them despise themselves, not sure if that is what you think the motive is by the Christians who preach repentance, but if so, please know that is NOT the motive of the people on this board. Doesn't really matter if that's your motive or not. That's what you're doing. C'mon, you don't even have to know psychology to see that. Try telling a child (and an insecure one at that) that they are a foul sinner who does bad things and should be grateful that they are even in this world because this supreme being still loved them even if they are worthless scum...please tell me, Jules, what that child is going to conclude. I don't think life jacket metaphors are really going to spring to mind. If you wanted to actually put me in the situation you described-- first of all, I'd like to point out that I am a lifeguard, former swim team coach, and competitive swimmer of thirteen years, so a life jacket won't be necessary, thanks all the same. Speaking metaphorically now. What I would feel was inadequate. I don't rely on life jackets, safety nets, or crutches. I loathe feeling like a burden, like I am not pulling every ounce of my own weight and then some, like I am not in absolute control of my fate, decisions and life. I don't beg for life jackets. I learn how to swim.
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Post by Grant on Apr 25, 2006 9:15:30 GMT -5
Sorry I can't give my story right now, but here's a short conclusion that has to do with my conversion:
I didn't have control entering this world, nor will I have control leaving this world. Death will come upon me even when I don't want it, and after that I will lose any control I thought I had.
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Post by Jules on Apr 25, 2006 10:06:59 GMT -5
Valentine, as long as you are trying to be in control of your fears, emotions, life, etc then you will never come to the point of absolute surrender. And that is where salvation and faith begin. You can't skip that part. Either you surrender in faith to a God who loves you or you remain under His wrath and take punishment for your sins.
I don't want you to fear death, or what life brings. I am telling you with all my heart there is peace to be had. Peace between you and your Creator. But your sins have seperated you from Him. The ONLY way to find peace is to come by the Cross of Christ, that is, to admit you are a sinner and you do fall short of God's glory. To accept the fact that you can never, ever, do anything that is worthy or good on your own. To stop thinking about what others think, and to look full on the face of God. To finally stop holding your breath and sit at His feet, and listen to His voice. TO hear Him say: you are forgiven. Your punishment has been given to my Son. You are now my child, and I am your Father.
The thing you should fear is not God, it is life (and death) apart from Him. I truly desire with all my heart for you to not be apart from God. But you must realize the state you are in. I don't keep reminding you to make you "feel" bad. I remind you because it must be done. You must repent, you must trust Christ. If not, you will never have peace, and will be apart from God forever. Any questions you have, seriously, please ask. THat is why we are here. You can also private message me if you want. I'm praying for you.
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Post by Jules on Apr 25, 2006 10:10:57 GMT -5
when I say you should not fear God, please don't misunderstand me. I just think you don't understand what I mean by it, but the Bible does say the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It is hard to explain (someone else may do a better job than me) how the fear turns to love. I don't fear my parents, but I do fear disappointing them because I love them and they love me. it is the same with God now. I know He will never stop loving me, but I haven't always known that or rested in it. But be sure of this: God hates workers of iniquity or sin. Only through the Cross can we experience GOd's love toward us.
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Post by valentine on Apr 25, 2006 12:00:35 GMT -5
Valentine, as long as you are trying to be in control of your fears, emotions, life, etc then you will never come to the point of absolute surrender. And that is where salvation and faith begin. You can't skip that part. Either you surrender in faith to a God who loves you or you remain under His wrath and take punishment for your sins. Woaaah, time out. Every psych book I've ever read tells me that "absolute surrender"= bad plan. What about self-actualization and internal locus of control? I don't know about giving someone else control of my life. Or accepting that they have power over me, or that I should give them power. I've been taught that that's not healthy. I am telling you with all my heart there is peace to be had. Peace between you and your Creator. But your sins have seperated you from Him. The ONLY way to find peace is to come by the Cross of Christ, that is, to admit you are a sinner and you do fall short of God's glory. But I have found peace! I'd be lying if I said I was fully self-actualized, but I'm on my way, and I've come very far from the self-despising ball of misery I was in high school. And the way I've been doing things sure works a lot better than the way I described on the previous page (any comments about that, by the way?). I answer to myself, and that's the only person I've ever really needed to answer to. No, I don't realize the "state" I'm in, unless you mean South Carolina. I don't believe I need to "repent" for anything. Repentance mandates compunction, and I'm not sorry. I have made many mistakes in my life, but I've learned from them and become a better person--I wouldn't want to erase them. My question for you, I suppose, would be why do you feel that your life is only acceptable if a god forgives you for living it? I can't apologize for myself. It's just not in my nature. PS: Sorry for the delay in response. I was online but was reading about the mating habits of Mongolian gerbils for a psych assignment due at noon. PPS: Sure, PM me. Or AIM me. EnjyJehan. I like idle chatter! ;D
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