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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 23:53:24 GMT -5
Kerrigan you have admitted that you have not stopped sinning. Why are you so shocked. You are under Gods grace even when you get impatient in traffic, or with your wife brother. And if I would have died in my sin I would have went to Hell. If I, you or anyone else is in known willful sin, we are NOT under the grace of God. Alan, can you provide some Scriptures that back up what you have said?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 23:38:19 GMT -5
These answers are VERY EYE opening...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 23:35:50 GMT -5
Sean and Alan, I believe that Jesse asked some questions...now let's continue the dialogue and answer the questions... If you don't answer the questions, you prove that you really aren't interested in a dialogue at all but in an interrogation...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 22:25:42 GMT -5
I find it very ironic and rather hypocritical that Jesse has answered all of everyone's questions now and instead of answering his questions as other's said they would (because that is how a dialogue works you know ) They continue to ask Jesse more questions. How about the people doing all the "attacking" start answering some questions that Jesse has proposed? By the way Sean, I only called it "attacking" because you called it "attacking." Otherwise, I would have never of called it that
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 12:25:30 GMT -5
Sean...speaking of "attack mode" that seems to be all you ever do on this message board. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. I see that you "conveniently" didn't answer any of Jesse's questions. Why don't you answer his brother...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 0:03:54 GMT -5
Sean, I'd say that's true of Jesse, You, Me and anyone else who does the same. It's simply what Scripture says. How can we argue with Scripture? Like I said before, we can't interpret Scripture in light of our experience. We must strive, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, to have an experience that lives up to Scripture! So then why would anyone listen to the doctrinal teachings or preach along side of someone who's a servant of sin, a liar, and a child of the devil? Shouldn't those without sin be preaching to him? Who said Jesse was in sin while he is preaching? I expect him to come out preaching with a clear conscience and free from any and all sin in his life...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 23:42:53 GMT -5
Sean, I'd say that's true of Jesse, You, Me and anyone else who does the same. It's simply what Scripture says. How can we argue with Scripture? Like I said before, we can't interpret Scripture in light of our experience. We must strive, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, to have an experience that lives up to Scripture!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 23:30:02 GMT -5
Sean, I believe all sin is willful as well. Do you believe that? Sin is a choice, it isn't some stuff that is inside of us. The flesh can tempt us to sin, but flesh in and of itself is not sin. By the way, we have been down this road before with the "Stop Sinning" message. It was clarified last time when there was a big discussion with Eli and Evan. Jesse is not saying that you have to stop sinning for a certain period of time before God saves you. He is saying that Repentance means you are making a choice to forsake sin altogether. And at the moment you make that choice and put your faith in Jesus, you are saved. From that point on, you are to "Go and Sin No More."
I personally don't know anybody who has stopped sinning altogether since they became a Christian. That's not the point though brother. That is the message Jesus preached and it is the message I will preach. As I stated in my other post, we are required to preach the Word of God...nothing more...nothing less. Should we water it down? What should I preach to the people? "Go and sin some more"? The Bible makes it clear that with Christians, it shouldn't be "when you sin" but "if you sin" (1 John 2:1). Hopefully we can agree with that. And IF we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One.
As far as someone going from the wrath of God to not the wrath of God, I would say this: If someone sins and dies in their sins they will go to Hell. God letting them die in their sins means He gave up on them and allowed them to die in their sins before they had a chance to repent. If you are a Christian and are sinning, you are playing with fire. You need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Abide in Christ and you WILL be faithful to Him. Be careful God doesn't reprobate you or kill you (as He did Ananias and Sapphira). But, if you are a Christian who has sinned and you haven't repented yet, BUT you are still alive and aren't reprobated...God is giving you time to Repent. We can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 22:21:17 GMT -5
I like Brother Shawn's sandwich board. Until I read that it was his, I thought he was wearing your's...since it has the same color scheme. Praise God for more men of God wearing sandwich boards!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 20:45:20 GMT -5
To my shame I have Dan. But I don't excuse it or justify it. I acknowledge that I didn't have to sin, but did anyways. And I was not right with God when I was in sin. why do you continue to preach to the lost when you still continue to find yourself, at times, under the wrath of Almighty God? Doesn't that just make you a hypocrite? In your eyes you are speaking of a complete salvation that you know nothing about. WHOA brother Sean...those are some strong words. I define Hypocrisy as preaching something that you don't do yourself. In my experience with Jesse, he has NEVER said that he hasn't sinned since becoming a Christian and has NEVER said that Christians can't sin. He simply says that Christians have the ability not to sin and that they are commanded by the Bible not to sin. This is simply promoting the Biblical Principle that we are to hate sin, love righteousness and not presume that we "have to sin." This is simply the preaching of Repentance to the sinner as Jesus did to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:11) and the blind man Jesus healed (John 5:14) and the preaching of Holiness to the professing Christian. How is that Hypocrisy? Just because someone doesn't know of a complete salvation at all times, doesn't mean he doesn't know of a complete salvation at some times. What would you recommend Jesse preach then? "Go and sin some more" instead of "Go and sin no more"? "Go and sin daily" instead of "Die daily"? One thing I know, from being a Pastor and an O/A Preacher, is that preaching is one of the hardest things to do. You have to preach the ideal...you have to preach Scripture...even if you don't match up to it exactly at all times! We can't water down the message! I mean, if I told you that I got impatient with my wife and kids last week, but then repented of it...should I then tell people that they should get impatient instead that they shouldn't get impatient? I really don't understand all the animosity and anger towards Jesse for simply preaching what the Bible says on this issue...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 20:36:02 GMT -5
Alan, I never said that I haven't seen open air preachers do wrong and sinful things in the open air. I am just trying to understand the "yoke of bondage upon the hearers" thing. I'm glad that you have never seen me do this. I try my best to just preach what the Bible says...nothing more, nothing less. I just thought you were equating the preaching of repentance or turning totally away from your sins or surrendering all as a "yoke of bondage upon the hearers." Sorry if I misunderstood you...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 19:22:38 GMT -5
Alan, God will not repent for you. God will influence you, persuade you, reason with you, and even beg you. But you yourself need to do the repenting. So we can't blame God for impenitence. It's our own choice if we don't repent. And it's our own choice if we do repent. Of course it is our choice to sin and our choice to hold on to the sin or to confess it. From my perspective too many OA preachers cover their sin quite well with all kinds of excuses. And then at the same time lay a yoke of bondage upon the hearers of their preaching. Alan, it seems like this conversation will be never ending with you brother. Even so, I guess we will continue to answer with what the Bible says. Is preaching the Bible laying "a yoke of bondage upon the hearers"? I would like you to give me an example of someone doing this. I mean, this is a pretty outlandish statement to make brother. There are thousands of videos of open air preachers on YouTube. Surely you can find one example of a preacher doing this. I would like to more fully understand what you mean by saying this. I await your example...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 17:36:46 GMT -5
Right! Christ does the work....not me. It is not either or, it is both and Alan. If I don't abide, I won't become more Holy. If I do abide, I will become more like Christ. You aren't saying that God does it all and does it against your will are you?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 17:29:31 GMT -5
I would respond basically the same as Jesse and would add this: People too often judge the Bible or interpret the Bible in light of their own experience. Simply because they're not perfect or because they sin everyday, they think the Bible says that a Christian can't be perfect or that we have to sin everyday. Instead of trying to re-interpret the Bible to fit our experience, we need to abide in Christ and we will have the experience(s) that the Bible speaks of!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 17:24:18 GMT -5
I think that is a good way of thinking. In immediate context, though, I would have to disagree with your first assessment. I'm glad that you are not making the same mistake I have seen many Calvinists make...condemning someone who God used mightily and making outlandish slandering statements with no evidence. I have heard and seen so many Calvinists make such strong statements about Finney without even reading any of his works for themselves! They go by what others have said...not a very smart...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 17:16:37 GMT -5
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 14:34:40 GMT -5
Any updates Dan?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 1:09:34 GMT -5
One More Thing...here is the context of the quote from my two sources (the quote Dan brought forth is in Yellow):
I said that a revival is the result of the right use of the appropriate means. The means which God has enjoined for the production of a revival, doubtless have a natural tendency to produce a revival. Otherwise God would not have enjoined them. But means will not produce a revival, we all know, without the blessing of God. No more will grain, when it is sown, produce a crop without the blessing of God. It is impossible for us to say that there is not as direct an influence or agency from God, to produce a crop of grain, as there is to produce a revival. What are the laws of nature according to which it is supposed that grain yields a crop? They are nothing but the constituted manner of the operations of God. In the Bible, the word of God is compared to grain, and preaching is compared to sowing the seed, and the results to the springing up and growth of the crop. {And the result is just as philosophical in the one case, as in the other, and is as naturally connected with the cause[; or, more correctly,} a revival is as naturally a result of the use of the appropriate means as a crop is of the use of its appropriate means.] ‹It is true that religion does not properly belong to the category of cause and effect; but although it is not caused by means, yet it has its occasion, and may as naturally and certainly result from its occasion as a crop does from its cause.›15
I wish this idea to be impressed on your minds, for there has long been an idea prevalent that promoting religion has something very peculiar in it, not to be judged of by the ordinary rules of cause and effect; in short, that there is no connection of the means with the result, and no tendency in the means to produce the effect. No doctrine is more dangerous than this to the prosperity of the church, and nothing more absurd.
Suppose a man were to go and preach this doctrine among farmers, regarding their sowing of grain. Let him tell them that God is a sovereign, and will give them16 a crop only when it pleases him, and that for them to plow, and plant, and labor, as if they expected to raise a crop, is very wrong, {and} taking the work out of the hands of God, that it {interferes} with his sovereignty, {and is going on in their own strength:} and that there is no connection between the means and the result on which they can depend. {And now,} suppose the farmers should believe such a doctrine? Why, they would starve the world to death.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 1:07:31 GMT -5
Not accusing you of lying brother...it just seems very clear as to what he is talking about. Sleep well brother...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 1:04:23 GMT -5
I'm off to bed as well. BUT, I read the same exact quote and in context he is talking about God's Sovereignty and Revival coming. He mentions nothing about Regeneration. I find it unusual that he would use the same exact quote when talking about Regeneration. I look forward to seeing what you have. I have this source in two e-book formats. I did not get it online... EDIT: Why did you delete your last post Dan?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 0:56:20 GMT -5
In fact, it seems VERY CLEAR that Finney is talking about how Revival comes about right before that quote. He is simply saying that Revival isn't TOTALLY a Sovereign Act of God and that if certain conditions are met that Revival WILL come. Dan, I don't know if you are just misunderstanding Finney or if you are willfully lying about this, but it seems very clear to me that Finney ISN'T talking about conversion at all....
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 0:52:58 GMT -5
Ok, Dan, I found this quote in Finney's Lectures on Revival...but I didn't see him saying anything about conversion not being a work of the Holy Spirit before this statement...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 0:47:48 GMT -5
Dan, are you referring to the collection that Jesse sent you? If so, I have the same collection. If this is what you are referring to, please reference the e-books, page #, etc. If not, maybe you are referring to the Alethea in the Heart CD? If so, I have that as well, please reference the e-boos, page #, etc.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 0:27:09 GMT -5
I have heard this said of Finney as well. I would also like to see proof or some kind of reference to Finney actually saying this. If he did say this, it would totally contradict everything that he wrote about in his own autobiography as experience...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 14, 2008 23:11:17 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that Dan...it was a blessing to read about!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 14, 2008 14:25:19 GMT -5
Amen Joe!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 19:31:30 GMT -5
I have not come to a conclusion concerning the Open View YET, as I am still studying it out. However, I do believe that Peter denying Christ three times before the rooster crows is explainable from the Open View. God and Jesus perfectly knew Peter's heart. They knew that after Jesus was arrested that Peter would deny Jesus when asked by anybody if he was one of Jesus' disciples. So, all God did was put three people in Peter's path who He knew would not only recognize Peter as one of Jesus' disciples, but would also have the audacity to say he was one out loud. Then, of course, God controls the animals. They don't have a free will in the sense that humans do. God had the rooster waiting to crow as soon as Peter denied Jesus the third time. I think this scenario would work just fine without God having Exhaustive Foreknowledge of the Future...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 9, 2008 22:04:11 GMT -5
john316yes, instead of suggesting you to pray about your position, as you have done to me...I suggest you read the Scriptures unbiased. You obviously haven't done that. I used to believe as you do. Then I stopped trying to fit all these Scriptures into a box they wouldn't fit into. Come to a knowledge of the truth! No matter what you may "hear" in your prayers, thinking what you are hearing is from God, if what you hear goes against the MOUNTAIN of Scripture I have given you, you are NOT hearing from God...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 9, 2008 20:51:56 GMT -5
Oh there are PLENTY of verses that prove one can "fall away", "depart from the faith" or "be cut off." Here's just a few:
Psalm 9:10; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 6:66; Acts 1:24-25; Acts 11:23; Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:5-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Galatians 5:4-7; Galatians 6:9; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 1:5,6; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:15; 2 Timothy 2:12; 2 Timothy 4:9-10; Hebrews 2:1; Hebrews 3:6, 8-15, 18-19; Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14; Hebrews 6:1, 8, 11-12, 15; Hebrews 10:23, 26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:15, 25; James 1:14-15; James 5:19-20; 2 Peter 1:1-11; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Revelation 2:4-7, 10-11, 17, 25-26; Revelation 3:2-5, 10-12, 16, 19, 20
"john316yes", you may "feel" that no one can "lose their salvation", but that doesn't make it true. And this is not a matter of how powerful God is or not. God is all powerful and is able to keep all. He has given man a free will though and they can choose to walk away from God. By the way, no one can "lose their salvation." It doesn't fall out of their pocket like a set of keys or a wallet. They WILLFULLY Rebel against God and WALK AWAY.
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Voting?
Feb 7, 2008 21:18:48 GMT -5
Post by Kerrigan on Feb 7, 2008 21:18:48 GMT -5
Why not just learn more about each candidate? It doesn't take very long to do that these days. Just watch some of the recent debates on YouTube. You get to see what their answers are to certain questions...
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