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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 6, 2008 20:07:58 GMT -5
Apparently and Antinomian is anyone that does not agree with Jesse and his doctrine. This is called a "straw man" attack Sean. You might want to read THIS THREAD as a reminder...
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 6, 2008 19:48:17 GMT -5
Just because Jesse or anyone else quotes from the Early Church Fathers, doesn't mean he or anyone else is saying that they are of the same authority as Scripture. Jesse said this above and I have said this several times. Calvinists are constantly quoting from people like Calvin, Luther, Washer, Piper, Sproul, MacArthur, etc. I don't accuse them of "appealing" to those people. I simply take it as them saying they believe these people are right in their interpretation of Scripture. I believe that the ECF's were right in most things. In fact, everything that I have read of the ECF's has been RIGHT ON. I haven't read all of their writings by any means. When it comes to their doctrines of free will, predestination, conditional security, they are ALL in agreement and ALL right on! That's what I like about them the most. Plus, their beliefs on these things show that the 5 points of Calvinism are not historical at all. BUT, like I said in the other thread, put them aside and let's discuss the Scriptures instead
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Post by Kerrigan on Mar 6, 2008 18:54:34 GMT -5
I see that those who constantly appeal to the early church fathers have convientley stayed silent on this issue. I didn't see this thread until now. Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt instead of making accusations? The post quoted above by you is a Straw Man...no one I know on this message board, myself included, has "constantly appealed" to the Early Church Fathers. I have used them to show that the doctrines of Calvinism were NOT historical AT ALL. That's all I have used them for.
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 29, 2008 11:14:10 GMT -5
I have been thinking about this and my conclusion as of now is that Hell is punishment. Separation from God is only the natural consequence of a sinners actions, because a Holy God can't have fellowship with a sinful human. Besides, do sinners really feel like they are being punished because they are separated from God? To them, that's not a punishment at all! They love their sin and hate God. Hell is their punishment...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 29, 2008 10:00:37 GMT -5
Lets have a party hurray!!! However, theres no logic. I can say Gods a man and prove by scripture all I want, but if there is no logic, then it does not mean anything. You seem to be fighting the truth. From some of the other posts I have seen you make, especially the "I Sin Everyday" one, I seriously think that you need to examine yourself...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 28, 2008 21:37:18 GMT -5
Here's a place to start, the Bible:
T-Total Depravity/Total Inability
Scriptures- Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21; Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Job 31:18; Psalm 22:6, 10; Psalm 51:5, 7-8; Psalm 58:3; Isaiah 7:15-16; Isaiah 55:6-7; Isaiah 64:6; Jeremiah 3:25; Ezekiel 18:1-3, 14-20; Matthew 3:7; Matthew 7:11; Matthew 18:3; Matthew 19:13-15; Matthew 22:2-10; Matthew 22:18; Matthew 23:13-17, 19, 23-29, 33; Luke 1:15; John 9:39-41; John 12:32; John 17:3; Acts 7:51-52; Acts 13:9-10; Acts 17:26-27, 30-31; Romans 1:3; Romans 2:14; Romans 3:9-18; Romans 5:12-21; Romans 6:16; Romans 7:9, 14; Romans 9:11; 1 Corinthians 3:1; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; Galatians 2:14-15; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13; Hebrews 2:14, 17-18; Hebrews 4:15; James 4:8-10; 1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 7
U-Unconditional Election
Scriptures- Deuteronomy 10:17; Job 34:19; Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Ezekiel 33:11; Matthew 22:2-10; Matthew 23:37; Luke 15:7, 10; John 6:44-46; Acts 2:11; Acts 2:39; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:5-11; Galatians 2:6; Ephesians 1:3-12; Ephesians 6:7-9; 1 Timothy 2:1,3-4; Hebrews 5:9; James 2:9; James 3:17; 1 Peter 1:17; 2 Peter 3:9;
L-Limited Atonement
Scriptures- Isaiah 53:5-6; John 1:29; John 3:16-17; Romans 5:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 1 Timothy 4:10; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 7:27; Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 10:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:14
I-Irresistible Grace
Scriptures- Genesis 4:6-7; Genesis 6:3; Matthew 22:2-10; Matthew 23:37; John 1:9; John 6:37, 44-46, 65; John 12:32; John 16:7-11; Acts 2:37; Acts 7:51, 54, 57; Acts 11:18; Acts 13:46, 48; Acts 26:18-20; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Philippians 1:29; Philippians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; Hebrews 2:3; Revelation 22:17
P-Perseverance of the Saints
Scriptures- Psalm 9:10; Ezekiel 3:20-21; Ezekiel 18:18-31; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; Matthew 24:48-51; Matthew 25:1-13; Mark 4:16-19; Mark 13:13; John 6:66; Acts 1:24-25; Acts 11:23; Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:5-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Galatians 5:4-9; Galatians 6:7-9; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 1:5,6; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:15; 2 Timothy 2:12; 2 Timothy 4:9-10; Hebrews 2:1; Hebrews 3:6, 8-15, 18-19; Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14; Hebrews 6:1, 8, 11-12, 15; Hebrews 10:23, 26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:14-15, 25; James 1:13-15; James 5:19-20; 2 Peter 1:9; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Revelation 2:4-7, 10-11, 17, 25-26; Revelation 3:2-5, 10-12, 16, 19, 20
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 23, 2008 10:38:53 GMT -5
Where does the Bible ever say that? I mean, doesn't 2 Peter 1:9 say that someone is only forgiven of their past sins? Plus, if God forgave them of every sin they ever committed, they could never depart from the faith, be cut off or fall away. And Scripture definitely teaches that someone can do those things:
Psalm 9:10; Ezekiel 3:20-21; Ezekiel 18:18-31; Ezekiel 33:12-20; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; Matthew 24:48-51; Matthew 25:1-13; Mark 4:16-19; Mark 13:13; John 6:66; Acts 1:24-25; Acts 11:23; Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:5-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Galatians 5:4-9; Galatians 6:7-9; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 1:5,6; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:15; 2 Timothy 2:12; 2 Timothy 4:9-10; Hebrews 2:1; Hebrews 3:6, 8-15, 18-19; Hebrews 4:1, 11, 14; Hebrews 6:1, 8, 11-12, 15; Hebrews 10:23, 26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:14-15, 25; James 1:13-15; James 5:19-20; 2 Peter 1:9; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Revelation 2:4-7, 10-11, 17, 25-26; Revelation 3:2-5, 10-12, 16, 19, 20
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 27, 2008 15:02:52 GMT -5
Hmmm...let me guess Pete, you're either and SDAer or a JW, right?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 26, 2008 22:57:19 GMT -5
Dan, posting something I have already read in response to my post doesn't change anything... Are you able to Scripturally refute the above? Sure, I could, but I don't really have the time to and I think that has already been done...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 26, 2008 21:40:02 GMT -5
Dan, posting something I have already read in response to my post doesn't change anything...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 26, 2008 20:59:31 GMT -5
It's a good thing that Jesus had no iniquities Dan, otherwise He might have been separated from God and God might have looked away from Him. Again, though, the Bible never says that Jesus became a sinner. It says He bore our sins. The Bible never says that God looked away from Jesus or that Jesus was separated from the Father in any way. You are applying verses that are for sinners to Jesus. That just doesn't work in my humble opinion...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 26, 2008 20:47:03 GMT -5
Dan, I am NOT arguing that if the Bible only mentions something once you can't preach it. When did I say that? I was just asking you if Jesus saying, "My God, My God, Why have thou forsaken me?" was what you were going off of. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. Is that what you are referring to in Romans 6? If so, I take that to mean spiritual death or separation from God. You have yet to prove that though. Just because the Bible says that He bore our sins, doesn't mean that He was separated from God. How is that even possible? For the God the Son to be separated from God the Father? I don't think it is. However, if Scripture said it, I would believe it even if I couldn't understand it. I have yet to see that in Scripture... When Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" it was due, clearly, to His taking our place, since we, before the New Birth, are seperated from God. He literally took the punishment I deserved. As well, Isaiah 53 brings all of this out so clearly; not simply one or two verses, but the entire Chapter deals with the Physical and Spiritual sufferings of Jesus Christ.... as well, Pslam 22, the entire Chapter, does the same. Thi sissue was dealt with here: openairoutreach.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=doctrinaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1203253904The Lord bless you, Brother Kerrigan Thanks for responding Dan. I still don't see anywhere in Scripture, whether it be the ones you listed or otherwise, that Jesus was spiritually or otherwise separated from God. I also don't see anywhere in Scripture where it says that God can't look upon sin. God looks upon sin everyday as he looks at the world. Until I can find clear verses that state these things, I hold to my previous interpretation...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 25, 2008 20:52:50 GMT -5
Dan, I am NOT arguing that if the Bible only mentions something once you can't preach it. When did I say that? I was just asking you if Jesus saying, "My God, My God, Why have thou forsaken me?" was what you were going off of. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. Is that what you are referring to in Romans 6? If so, I take that to mean spiritual death or separation from God. You have yet to prove that though. Just because the Bible says that He bore our sins, doesn't mean that He was separated from God. How is that even possible? For the God the Son to be separated from God the Father? I don't think it is. However, if Scripture said it, I would believe it even if I couldn't understand it. I have yet to see that in Scripture...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 25, 2008 8:26:56 GMT -5
I'm sorry Dan, but I still don't see anywhere in Scripture where it says that Jesus was spiritually separated from the Father. Are you basing this view solely off the fact that Jesus said on the cross, "My God, My God, why have thou forsaken Me?" If not, can you share the other verses as well? God Bless...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 24, 2008 2:16:53 GMT -5
I think it best for all of us that the conversation go back to the topic rather than on an individual (Eli) who isn't here to defend his position. The only reason Eli was even brought up is because this whole thread started with his article that you posted. And yes, I agree, repentance isn't just stopping or turning from outward sinful acts. It is a heart thing. If it was just turning from outward sinful acts, that would make us just like the Pharisees. But, I don't think anyone is saying that repentance is just turning from outward sinful acts, so that seems like more of a straw man to me...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 23, 2008 22:11:10 GMT -5
Plus, if you are going to call "repent of your sins" or "stop sinning" a "false gospel", then I guess Jesus was a False Teacher. No..Jesus is not a false teacher. He can tell people personally to go and sin no more all day long because He can give them the grace to obey (cease from willful sin). However, when Revk or sscott tell someone to go and sin no more... we are completely powerless to give them the means to do it. Unless Jesus, by His Spirit is quickening that person to eternal life and breaking them free from the bondage of sin. The key factor in all of this is a PERSONAL encounter with Christ the Living Son of God. What you just said makes no sense whatsoever. I guess we should never tell anyone that they need to be Born Again either, since Jesus is the only one to ever tell anyone that and because He only said it to Jesus. When Did I say I have the power to give them the means to do it. I don't have the power to give anyone the means to do anything! But God does and He gives ALL men the power to repent, ALL men the power to have faith and ALL men the power to go and sin no more! That is why we can preach those things...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 23, 2008 22:09:11 GMT -5
Believe what you want Dan, but from talking to Eli on the phone and through email, he does not believe in preaching Repentance with the definition of Repentance being "turning from sin." Plus, where have you seen any "recent" or "new" videos of Eli. If there are some, I would like to see if he still preaches repentance as turning from Sin... Start at 7:37 (The audio is scratchy but you can hear him give a great explaination of the Gospel as he speaks of fornication, adultery, wicked hearts, the commandments of God and the Free Gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ) video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-6679907666371606813&hl=en-CABrother, that is not a recent video. I watched that video quite some time ago...I'm talking about sometime this semester. In fact, that video was uploaded in September of last year. That pre-dates all of the discussions we have had on here, etc. I have talked to Eli several times since then through the phone, email and the message board. I think he has made his position on what repentance means quite clear...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 23, 2008 12:11:12 GMT -5
Plus, if you are going to call "repent of your sins" or "stop sinning" a "false gospel", then I guess Jesus was a False Teacher. How dare Jesus tell sinners to "Go and Sin NO MORE"! I mean, Jesus is preaching a "works Gospel" isn't He? John 5:14, John 8:11 One more thing, in Eli's view, how does someone "lose their salvation"? Someone departing from the faith, being cut off or falling away are obvious truths found in Scripture. But, if God's Wrath was poured out on Jesus for those who trust in Him, how can their be any wrath left for them? I guess they just go to a wrath-less eternity separated from God, huh? A 30 second glance at Eli's old and present preaching videos shows your indictment against him to be false. Eli Brayley believes in repentance; he simply does not believe it saves. And neither do I. I think it quite unfair of you to paint Eli's Preaching in this light when his entire Ministry testifies against what you're saying. Believe what you want Dan, but from talking to Eli on the phone and through email, he does not believe in preaching Repentance with the definition of Repentance being "turning from sin." Plus, where have you seen any "recent" or "new" videos of Eli. If there are some, I would like to see if he still preaches repentance as turning from Sin...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 23, 2008 10:43:03 GMT -5
Plus, if you are going to call "repent of your sins" or "stop sinning" a "false gospel", then I guess Jesus was a False Teacher. How dare Jesus tell sinners to "Go and Sin NO MORE"! I mean, Jesus is preaching a "works Gospel" isn't He? John 5:14, John 8:11
One more thing, in Eli's view, how does someone "lose their salvation"? Someone departing from the faith, being cut off or falling away are obvious truths found in Scripture. But, if God's Wrath was poured out on Jesus for those who trust in Him, how can their be any wrath left for them? I guess they just go to a wrath-less eternity separated from God, huh?
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 23, 2008 10:31:07 GMT -5
Plus, Dan, you still haven't proved that Jesus was spiritually dead, that is that the God the Son was separated from God the Father. Eli's article is totally wrong. You don't lose the power of the preaching of the cross. He obviously doesn't understand the position he is trying to refute. That's usually what happens when someone tries to refute it though...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 17, 2008 23:46:09 GMT -5
Amen Frank...you got it brother!
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 22:29:05 GMT -5
I chose I spend more time reading my Bible then Theology. To be quite honest, I haven't read very many Theology books at all. My favorite type of book to read besides my Bible is an Autobiography/Biography about a faithful saint. I almost picked "I spend more time praying then reading Theology" because that would be true as well, but I would say that I read my Bible more than praying so I picked that...
EDIT: By the way Micah, this is a good "check" for all of us. Thanks...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 16, 2008 22:31:29 GMT -5
Good post Micah. I haven't read much of Finney's stuff, but from his autobiography as well as a biography, I would say what you said is very true...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 19:36:38 GMT -5
They are different, but are also very similar. The Greek word for confession basically means that the sinner agrees with God about their sin and guilt. Repentance means to change one's mind following a change of course, action and life. So, confession precedes repentance, but they naturally go together. If someone says they are confessing, but they are not repenting....well, they haven't really confessed or they are just plain nuts in my mind. If you agree with God that something is wrong for God, the rest of the world and you, then why won't you stop it? But, there it is...the sinner loves their sin more then God, others and themselves...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 17:25:29 GMT -5
Thanks for being honest Dan....
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 9:37:51 GMT -5
It is just another verse that shows that salvation is conditional...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 15, 2008 9:00:22 GMT -5
Amen. The only sin that is forgiven is sin that is repented of. As joem would say, "Unrepentant sin is Unforgiven sin"
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 17, 2008 0:26:38 GMT -5
Hopefully this will be my last post for the night, but I think I should respond to Alan's last post. Alan, I have not "painted you in a bad light" as you have said. You have painted yourself in a bad light by saying some of the things you have said on this thread. But, I guess that doesn't matter, because as you said, Christians can live in open rebellion and still be under God's Grace. No offense brother, but why would I want to call you Alan? Are you just planning on arguing with me about things and trying to convert me to your view of the Bible? That would seem to be a waste of my time brother. If you just want to talk and start a relationship with me apart from the message board, then so be it. BUT, if you are interested in an argument or trying to convert me, then let's not even bother...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 17, 2008 0:14:35 GMT -5
You know what...this is ridiculous. I am not even going to discuss this any further. I know what I believe and it IS from the Bible as a many brothers here have already shown. If Alan or anyone else wants to misrepresent me, my view or the Bible itself, then go ahead. I am done for the night and most likely done with this thread for good...
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Post by Kerrigan on Feb 17, 2008 0:10:59 GMT -5
And if I would have died in my sin I would have went to Hell. If I, you or anyone else is in known willful sin, we are NOT under the grace of God. Alan, can you provide some Scriptures that back up what you have said? The entire New Testament brother. Brother, I don't think you can give just ONE verse to backup such unscriptural teaching...
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