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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 16, 2008 15:07:47 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 10:13 says that the will of man is not necessitated by the strongest motive. No temptation exceeds the natural/moral ability of man. Man is naturally able to be morally upright or morally depraved, it is his choice.
Sinners have all the faculties needed to obey God - they have the faculties of intelligence, sensibilities, and free will. The only thing that keeps them back is their own internal unwillingness. That is why they need the moral influence of the Holy Spirit to make them willing to do what they are already naturally capable of doing.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 19:11:27 GMT -5
Of course. Because God is glorified more when men disobey Him instead of obey Him. It is like honoring your parents. When do you honor your parents the most, when you obey them or when you disobey them? Obviously, when you disobey them. Likewise, God is glorified when men disobey Him, trample upon His law, and disregard His Kingdom.
In Calvinism, sin occurs because God wants it to occur. All the sins of the past, all the sins of the present, all the sins of the future, is precisely what God wanted. When sin occurs, God prefers sin over holiness.
I don't want sin to occur, ever. Does that mean I am ungodly?
As a Christian, we should want what God wants. "Not my will but yours be done". So we should want every sin to occur that actually does occur. We should never want sin to not occur. We should want men to disobey God's law, because God wants men to disobey His law.
Right?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 16:53:33 GMT -5
Praying...
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 16:33:57 GMT -5
How could God want sin unless God has a sinful nature?
If God's nature is perfect, God cannot want anything but perfection.
God wants a sinless Universe, because He is sinless!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 16:30:50 GMT -5
Great. It is a theological conference that they have up there every year. It has been going on since the 80's I think.
My wife and I would love to stay with you. It is still tentative whether we will make it up there or not because of airfare. I will get back to you on that.
Can you email me your address so I can put it in my records, for any future outreaches as well?
Jesse@OpenAirOutreach.com
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 11:11:02 GMT -5
Sure thing.
It is a great book. It is an unbiased presentation of what Augustine taught and what Pelagius taught taken from original sources.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 11:09:12 GMT -5
I have skimmed through these quotes and writings and have really liked them.
Repentance is the missing ingredient to the Gospel message. Modern preachers say "faith" "faith" "faith" but the Bible teaches repentance and faith. Faith alone is dead and cannot save.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 11:03:55 GMT -5
I don't really see the problem. The writers of the Bible were holy men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They could have chosen to be unholy men, but they didn't. That's the whole point. They were men who did the will of God.
It is like saying, "If Jesus had a free will, how do you know that being crucified was really what God wanted? Jesus could have been doing his own thing."
The truth of the matter is that Jesus did have a free will, the Father did want His Son to be a sacrifice, and Jesus did the Fathers will.
Jesus could have prayed for twelve legions of angels, but he didn't.
Likewise, the question, "If the Apostles had a free will, how do you know that they wrote what God really wanted? They could have been writing their own thing."
The truth of the matter is, that the Apostles did have a free will, they were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and the Apostles wrote what God wanted them to write.
The Apostles could have become Gnostic's if they wanted to, but they didn't.
(It is also important to note that the Gnostic's denied free will. The Gnostic's taught that men have ruined natured incapable of good. But the disciples of the Apostles all taught free will).
Besides, if the Apostles backslide and did their own thing, God could have:
1. Killed them before they did any major damage 2. Destroyed their writings through countless means
But God has preserved the Words that He spoke through His prophets and through His Apostles. The prophets could have become false prophets, but they didn't. The Apostles could have become false apostles, but they didn't. They sealed their testimony with their blood, and their words are affirmed by our own God given conscience.
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Here are some question for you RC,
If the false prophets do not have a free will, but God causes them to speak lies, how can you trust God's Word at all?
Also, how could God be angry with false prophets if they do not have a free will? And how could they be punished? They are not doing their own thing, they are doing the Sovereign will of God right? Wouldn't that mean that God is angry with His own Sovereign plan?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 7:44:41 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 15, 2008 7:35:39 GMT -5
Hey Brother,
Thanks for the offer!
The possibility is to fly up for a conference in Shipshewanna, IN.
How close are you to there?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 15:41:36 GMT -5
Great question!
Satan wants to destroy mankind, and in Calvinism, God is helping Him do it!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 15:38:26 GMT -5
God never wanted sin to enter into His universe and corrupt it. So God is grieved when both men and angels sin. Sin is harmful and destructive to the universe God cares about. That is why God wants a sin-free, or a sinless, universe.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 15:36:53 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 12:06:50 GMT -5
The prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ Himself all presented the Gospel to the world through open air preaching. If the Church is going to accomplish the Great Commission, it will not be through the wisdom of this world with all of its modern methods, it will be through the wisdom of the ages, through the wisdom of God. We are living in a time when darkness and sin is everywhere. Men and women of God need to learn how to rise up and confront the darkness with the light. We need bold men and women of God who will dare to stand against the culture, against the world, against the devil, taking a stand for the Lord Jesus Christ. Through this DVD you will learn the basic information that you need in order to stop out into the public arena and do battle for the Kingdom of God. This teaching is designed to inspire and instruct the body of Christ. The purpose of this message is to encourage and educate Christians for the important task of soul winning. Learn about the heart, the concept, and the practicalities of public preaching as you watch this powerful message. Cost:$10 (includes shipping) How to Order:To place your order all you have to do is send your payment through paypal or mail it in an envelope to our address. Then send us an email with your shipping address information. PayPal: www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_xclick&business=jessewm218%40hotmail%2ecom&no_shipping=2&no_note=1&tax=0&%20currency_code=USD&bn=PP%2dDonationsBF&charset=UTF%2d8 Physical Mail: Jesse & Krista Morrell PO Box 9035 Fayetteville, NC 28311 Email: Jesse@OpenAirOutreach.com
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 9:56:59 GMT -5
I think Kerrigans point is that if someone is going to use the name "Pelagian" they ought to at least know what they are talking about. Kerrigan doesn't go around labeling things "Pelagian" so he doesn't have to thoroughly study the teachings of Pelagius and his followers. Often, those who label stuff as "Pelagian" don't even know what Pelagianism taught.
For example, I have heard some call Pelagianism "salvation by works" when Pelagius himself, in his commentary on the Romans, said that we are justified "by faith alone". Pelagius was saying "faith alone", before Martin Luther, during a time when the Catholic Church was teaching salvation by other things. Augustine for example taught salvation by infant baptism, and that of course has no faith in it at all. So Augustine denied salvation by faith, but Pelagius affirmed it. Interesting huh? It reminds me of that book, "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up". Pelagius never denied any of the essentials of salvation, but Augustine did.
RC, do you believe in salvation by infant baptism like Augustine? Or do you believe in salvation by faith like Pelagius? Should we label as a "Pelagian" everyone who believes in salvation by faith?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 9:29:54 GMT -5
I think we are going with Refining Fire Radio.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 9:29:06 GMT -5
Doug,
That sounds fantastic! I praise God that you were able to witness to these Mormons about apostolic truth. Many react to false teaching with more false teaching. What I mean by that is, I know groups who teach lawlessness and easy-believism in reaction to Mormonism's doctrine of repentance and obedience. So they react to false teaching by falling into false teaching themselves. But instead of reacting to cults in that manner, we simply need to get back to apostolic truths.
I am very glad that Moral government theology has been foundational for you! Moral government provides an outlook or a frame work by which we can view the works of God. I find that sinners see the reasonableness of God and His ways when they understand Him in the context of a King with a Kingdom. When that is understood, issues like sin, repentance, punishment, atonement, all make perfect sense.
Keep up the great work!
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 14, 2008 8:53:12 GMT -5
I greatly appreciate the ministry that you do. We need more Christians out there who will do what you are doing.
Keep up the good work!
Does God want everyone to be saved?
And if not, are you more loving than God?
And if God does not want everyone to be saved, why do you want everyone to be saved? Shouldn't you align your will with God's will?
Do they have the ability, or free will power, to accept the Gospel?
If not, how can they be required to accept the Gospel, and how can they be accountable for rejecting the Gospel?
Wouldn't that be like taking a man to court for being born cripple, and then sending him to jail because he has "chosen" not to walk?
Again, if they have no free will, how can they be responsible and accountable for their actions?
If sin is necessitated by their sinful nature which they inherit at birth, sin is not their fault at all anymore than the color of their skin is their own fault.
And if they do not have the ability to turn from their sins and believe the Gospel, it is not their fault if they do not do so.
Do sinners have a free will? My understanding of Calvinism is that it says no.
Can God give all sinners a free will? My understanding of Calvinism is that it says yes.
Does God give all sinners a free will? My understanding of Calvinism is that it says no.
That is why it would be God's fault, and not the sinners fault, if they continue to sin and go to hell. If they fail to repent and believe it is not their fault because it was not in their power to do so. If they fail to repent and believe, it is God's fault, because God could have given them the ability to do so but He didn't.
If something happens that God doesn't want, doesn't that mean He is not "Sovereign" in the Calvinistic sense? Doesn't "Sovereignty" in Calvinism mean that God gets everything that He wants? That everything that happens is His will?
If everything that happens is God's will, then it is God's will that most are on the broad road, and it is God's will that only few are on the narrow road. If most continue sinning and go to hell, it is because God wants it to be that way.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 20:45:10 GMT -5
"Therefore will I howl for Moab, and I will cry out for all Moab; mine heart shall mourn for the men of Kirheres. O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for thee..." Jer. 48:31-32
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 20:00:14 GMT -5
RC,
What do you think? Is homosexuality human nature or is it against human nature?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 19:56:00 GMT -5
- Calvinistic Sovereignty says that everything that happens is the will of God.
- Sin is when man rebels against the will of God.
- Therefore, Calvinistic Sovereignty denies that man is in rebellion against God's will. Therefore, Calvinistic Sovereignty denies the fall of man.
- If you affirm that man is in rebellion against the will of God (sin), then you must deny Calvinistic Sovereignty which says everything is the will of God.
Let me ask you this:
When God looks at this sinful world, is He angry and grieved, or is He happy and pleased?
Does He look at this world and say, "This is perfect. This is exactly what I wanted. This is a beautiful and good world that I created, caused, and controlled."
I'll tell you this, God is grieved and angry with sin, but God is not grieved and angry with His own plan. When God looked at the world that He Himself omnipotently created, He said "it is good" (Gen.. 1:31). But when God looked upon the sinful world that man's free will corrupted, God was grieved and repented of making man (Gen. 6:5-6) and therefore sent the flood.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 19:50:13 GMT -5
John 17 is talking about the Apostles and does not really relate to this discussion.
It is like when Calvinists use this Scripture:
Joh 15:16 - "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"
This is talking about the disciples and their Apostleship. Jesus handpicked certain men to be his personal disciples after praying all night. This scripture does not apply to all Christians and it is not talking about salvation.
Calvinism thrives off taking Scriptures out of context and twisting their meaning.
But nobody has yet answered my question: Should Christians want everyone to repent and believe? Is that included in "love thy neighbor as thyself". And if that is what a Christian wants, does that meant they do not want the will of God, since God wants most men to keep sinning and go to hell?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 19:43:37 GMT -5
You can make it any size you want. If you do a sandwich board, you'll want it to be a certain size so that it fits ok. I think my sandwich board is 2ft by 2ft or something like that. The material is just a very lightweight board. I have my signs and sandwich boards made at Anytime Sign: signs@centurytel.net And I've had my banners made by Kevin Farrer: www.CrytoGod.com
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 17:50:56 GMT -5
Does God Ever Take Away Free Will?
God grants man free choice most of the time, but sometimes He might take away free choice and use man as a mere instrument. When it comes to salvation for example, God wants free choices. But when it comes to controlling nations and rulers, God will use causation if influence doesn't work.
CONDITIONS MET WHEN FREE WILL IS SET ASIDE
Michael Saia, in his book on the cross, explains five conditions in which God can justly take away someone's free will:
1. The person is not a righteous person: God has no need to take away the free will of an obedient man.
2. The person's will is only suspended temporarily: the removal of free will is a temporary exception.
3. The person's salvation is not affected by the temporary loss of free will: God does not force a person to be saved or force a person to be reprobated.
4. The event has implications for all mankind: There is a major reason or a great necessity for the free will to be removed.
5. The consequences are suspended: the man is not morally accountable for anything that he did not willingly do, so he will not be rewarded for doing what God wanted him to do.
EXAMPLES OF FREE WILL BEING SET ASIDE
Here are some major examples of God setting aside a man's free will:
1. Balaam's blessing of Israel when he tried to curse (Num. 22-24).
2. The hardening of Pharoah's heart (Ex. 4-14) (I think this is particular situation still open to interpretation)
3. The placement of fear on the hearts of Cannanites so they would be destroyed (Deut. 2:25; 11:25)
4. The stirring of Cyrus's heart to release the Israelites from captivity and to rebuild the temples in Jerusalem (2 Chron. 36:22; Ezra 1:1)
5. The turning of Nebuchadnezzar's mind to that of an animal (Dan. 4)
6. The giving over of a kingdom into the hands of the beast (Rev. 17:17)
These are all examples of God ruling His providential government through causation. That is why the Bible says, "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Prov. 21:1
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 17:39:05 GMT -5
God has four distinct governments. God governs over man’s moral actions (Moral Government), God governs over nations (Providential Government), God governs over animals and creatures (Animate Non-Moral Government) and God governs over the matter of the universe (Material Non-Moral Government).
The Material Government (Solar systems, matter, whether, material worlds) is governed by the law of cause and effect (Gen. 6:7, 19:24, Exo. 14:21-29; Num. 11:31; 1 Kin. 18:38; 2 Chro. 7:13; Ps. 50:1, 93:4, 135:6-7; Isa. 45:7, 45:12; Dan. 4:35; Jonah 1:4, 14-15; Matt. 5:45, 8:24-27, 24:29; Mk. 4:39-41; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2-3; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:1-4, 8, 12, 18, 21).
The Non-Moral Government is governed by the law of instinct and causation (Gen. 9:2; Num. 22:22-23; Deut. 11:31; 1 Kin. 17:4-6; Dan. 6:22; Jonah 1:17, 2:10; Matt. 10:29, 17:27, 26:74; Mk. 5:11:13).
The Providential Government (nations, rulers, and kings) is governed by the law of influence and causation (Gen. 19:24-25; Exo. 11:9-10; 18:10; 20:2; Num. 33:53; Deut. 2:5; 2:25; 3:20; 9:23; 11:24; Josh. 1:2-6; 1:15, 8:1; 11:20; 23:15; 24:14; 1 Kin. 22:19-23; 1 Chro. 29:10-12; Esther 4:14; Ps. 22:28, 66:7; Prov. 21:1; Isa. 60:22; Jer. 21:10; 27:6; 32:27-30; 35:15; 50:9; Eze. 11:15; 17:24; 29:19; Dan. 2:21; 2:38; 4:17; 4:32; 5:21; 5:18; 7:25; Zeph. 3:8; Jn. 19:10-11; Rom. 13:1; 13:4-5; Rev. 17:17).
But God’s Moral Government over man is governed by motives presented to the mind, appealing to free will. It is not governed by the law of cause and effect, not governed by force, but is rather governed by the law of liberty or the law of influence and response (Gen. 3:11; 4:6-7, 6:5; Deut. 30:19, Josh. 24:15; 1 Kin. 18:21; Isa. 1:16-20, 5:4; 45:22; 55:6-7, 66:3-4; Jer. 2:9; Hos. 10:12; Jer. 18:5-11; 21:8; 26:13; Eze. 18:30-32; 20:7-8; Matt. 23:37; Jn. 1:11; 5:40; 7:17; Acts 2:40; 17:30; 7:51; Rom. 2:5-11; 6:16-17; 2 Cor. 7:1; 2 Tim. 2:21; Jas. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 1:22; Gal. 6:17-8; Rev. 3:20; 22:17).
It is in God's moral government that we find rebellion, because of man's free will. God's will is not always done on earth as it is in Heaven.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 17:36:25 GMT -5
Every time the Bible uses the word "sin" it contradicts Calvinistic Sovereignty. If you deny that man is in REBELLION against God, then you deny that mankind is fallen. But if you admit that man is in rebellion against the will of God, then you must deny Calvinistic Sovereignty.
The word "Sovereignty" is a theological word that is not used extensively throughout the Bible. But we do know that God is the Supremely Ruler, and we know that mankind is in rebellion against this supreme Ruler.
"His citizens hated him, and would not have him to REIGN over them" Lk 19:14. In other words, His subjects were in rebellion against His Sovereign rule.
RC,
The burden of proof is on you to prove that God causes EVERY SINGLE SIN that EVER occurs. The Bible never teaches this.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that man NEVER has free will. The Bible clearly says that God, at rare times, takes away man's free will or overrides man's will. But the Bible never says that God ALWAYS controls people like puppets.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 16:52:00 GMT -5
That's true. We only have a few options:
1. Christians should want everyone to repent and be saved 2. Christians should want few to repent and be saved, and most to continue sinning and go to hell.
Does God want many to be on the broad road and few to be on the narrow road? Does God want most people to remain impenitent and unbelieving?
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 16:47:12 GMT -5
I thought that Calvinistic monergism taught that God does everything?
Synergism says that preaching the truth is involved in salvation.
Do preachers have a role in a persons conversion? Or does God do everything?
Calvinists seem to be prone to reason that if preachers are involved, then preachers should get the glory.
1Co 4:15 - For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 15:29:11 GMT -5
Great to hear that you will be on the campuses again! Are you traveling alone the first semester and just teaming up with people along the way? Here is the schedule for Krista and I: Aug. 21-23 Henderson KY Aug. 23 Evansville, IN Aug. 23-29 Columbia , MO Aug. 29-30 Fayetteville, AR Aug. 30-Sep. 3 Dallas, TX Sep. 3-6 Tyler, TX Sep. 6-14 Austin , TX Sep. 12-18 San Marcos, TX Sep. 18-20 Warsaw, IN Sep. 19-28 Lake Charles, LA Sep. 28- Oct. 4 Pensacola, FL Oct. 4-13 Madison AL Oct 13-19 Atlanta, GA Oct. 19-26 Tallahassee, FL Oct. 26- Nov. 2 Tampa, FL Nov.2-9 Orlando, FL Nov. 9-16 Daytona, FL Nov. 16-22 Fayetteville, NC Nov. 22-29 Virginia Beach, VA Nov. 29-Dec.5 Hyattsville, MD Dec. 5-8 Pittsburgh, PA (visiting) Dec.8-31 Cheshire, CT (visiting during Christmas break) Of course, things are always subject to change. We might stay longer somewhere, or switch a few dates, etc.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 14:28:16 GMT -5
These signs are so awesome! I can't wait to use it out on campus.
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