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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 14:26:31 GMT -5
I really like that one too. It says exactly what the show is about.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 13:33:29 GMT -5
Redeeming Truth Radio
Redeeming the Times Radio
Eph 5:16 - redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Col 4:5 - Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time.
I like "Redeeming Truth Radio".
Whatever name we pick, it should tell people what the show is about.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 13:19:36 GMT -5
Wesley had a very bad marriage because of the amount of traveling and preaching he did. I'm told his wife even pulled him out of the pulpit by his hair once. But he never had a divorce, and Todd Bentley is nothing like John Wesley. Christians should not divorce, and ministers especially should not.
Finney is a different story. He was an excellent family man. He was a great father and a great husband, and had a wonderful family along with having wonderful revivals.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 11:40:55 GMT -5
Can any Calvinists give me some insight into these verses?
It seems clear, those who continue to sin will perish despite the fact that Christ died for them.
Sacrifices in the Old Testament were considered useless without a change of heart, without a deep moral change inside the transgressor for whom the sacrifice is made (Ps. 50:7-23; 51:16-19; Prov. 15:8; 16:6; 21:3; 21:27; Isa. 1:10-17; 56:6-7; 66:3-4; Jer. 7:21-26; 11:14-17; 14:10-12; Hos. 6:6-7; 8:11-14; 9:1-6; 12:9-11; 14:1-3; Joel 1:9;, 13; 2:12-14; Amos 4:4-5; 5:21-27; Jonah 1:15; 2:9; 3:5-10; Mic. 6:6-8; Zeph. 1:7-13; 3:10-11; Hag. 2:14; Zech. 14:21; Mal. 1:6-14; 2:10-14; 3:3-4; Matt. 9:13; 12:7; Heb. 10:8).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 11:37:25 GMT -5
There is always lots of silence from the Calvinists when these issues come up on the boards......
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 13, 2008 11:34:18 GMT -5
Is God's Sovereignty so weak and fail that He cannot allow man to have a free will?
The God of the Bible is Sovereign (He is the ultimate authority) and man has a free will (man can choose to obey God's commandments or not).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 17:38:43 GMT -5
In the world of a Calvinist, God does not want everyone to be saved. In fact, God wants very few (the elect) to be saved, but God wants most to continue sinning and go to hell. Many are on the broad road because God wants them to be, and few are on the narrow road because God wants it to be that way (in Calvinism).
So as Christians, should we want everyone to repent and be saved (in the world of Calvinism)? Would it be ungodly for us to want this, since God (in Calvinism) does not want this? Should we want most of the world to continue in their sin and go to hell, and only want a few sinners to repent and believe the Gospel?
And did the Apostle Paul really want everyone to be saved?
"Him we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we might present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." Col. 1:28
And why does God call all men everywhere to repent?
"God commands all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 17:11:04 GMT -5
God gives everyone as much moral influence as they need. All are without excuse.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 17:03:55 GMT -5
Notice it doesn't say "Jesus might have shed his blood for you" or "Jesus died for the elect... maybe you". But it says "He shed His blood For You". They can put their faith in Christ without questioning this fact. Jesus shed his blood for everyone that will read this sign. This cuts right to the chase. It tells them exactly what repentance is, and it immediately destroys all of their excuses. Since sin is an avoidable choice, they can't justify their sinfulness by saying "I was born this way" "I can't help it" "I'm only human" "God's law is impossible" etc. Being a sinner is optional since the choice of sin is avoidable. Sinners need to know:1. The truth about their sin 2. The truth about the Savior This sign covers all the basics.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 16:32:18 GMT -5
How about:
If God foreknew this show would happen from eternity past, can even God put a stop to it? (If the show didn't happen, His foreknowledge would be wrong. So not even God can avoid what He foreknew would certainly happen....)
Maybe in our introduction we could say, "The radio show that God predestined before the foundations of the world... It's been a long time coming...."
(Of course, if God eternally foreknew everything, God could predestine nothing at all....)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 16:30:00 GMT -5
Krista and I are praying for you guys.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 12, 2008 12:04:46 GMT -5
I kind of like Bible Thumping Radio better then Bible Thumpers Radio.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 20:01:35 GMT -5
Bible Thumping Radio
Bible Thumper Radio
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 19:58:37 GMT -5
This is from my atonement booklet:
Christ died for all men (Isa. 45:22; 53:6; 55:1; Eze. 18:30-32; Matt. 23:37; Mk. 16:15-16; Lk. 2:10-11; Jn. 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 2:11; 5:15; Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:11; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22; Rev. 3:20), and He died for all specifically because all men have chosen to become sinners of their own free will (Isa. 52:3; 53:6).
There is no partiality with God (Rom. 2:11; 2 Pet. 1:17). God wants everyone to repent and be saved (Ps. 145:9; Eze. 18:32; 33:1; Acts 17:30-31; 2 Pet. 3:9). The atonement makes salvation possible and available, it is a gift that God offers to all to accept and receive (Jn. 1:11-12; Lk. 14:16-24; Rom 5:18) through a decision (2 Cor. 5:20) to repent and believe, though many reject God’s gracious offer (Isa. 65:2; Lk. 7:30; 14:16-24; Jn. 1:10-11; Rom. 10:21; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17) and resist His grace (Gen. 6:3; Matt. 23:37; Lk. 7:30, 13:34; Acts 7:51).
God is trying to save all men (Jn. 3:16, 6:44-45, 12:32; 16:8; Acts 17:30-31, 2 Pet. 3:9). God gives light to all men (Jn. 1:9). God is convicting all men (Jn. 16:8). God is drawing all men (Jn. 6:44-45, 12:32). God is calling all men (Matt. 11:28, 22:9; Lk. 5:32; Acts 17:30; Rev. 22:17). God’s grace has appeared to all men (Rom. 5:15; Tit. 2:11-12). But many are unwilling and refuse (Isa. 30:9; 30:15-16; Jer. 8:5; Eze. 20:7-8; Matt. 11:20-21; 23:37, Mk. 6:6; 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Lk. 14:16-24 ;Jn. 5:40; Acts 7:51; 17:27; Rev. 2:21).
Again, God is trying to save all men (Jn. 3:16, 6:44-45, 12:32; 16:8; Acts 17:30-31, 2 Pet. 3:9). God gives light to all men (Jn. 1:9). God is convicting all men (Jn. 16:8). God is drawing all men (Jn. 6:44-45, 12:32). God is calling all men (Matt. 11:28, 22:9; Lk. 5:32; Acts 17:30; Rev. 22:17). God’s grace has appeared to all men (Rom. 5:15; Tit. 2:11-12).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 18:20:06 GMT -5
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hat sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:44-45
The way that the Father draws us to Christ is by teaching us the truth. God must first enlighten our minds, and this influences our will. And if we learn from what we are taught, we will come to Christ.
These two verses are saying the same thing:
- All that the Father gives Me will come to Me..." John 6:37
- Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:44-45
The former says "all", the latter says "every man". The former says the Father gives, the latter says the Father teaches. The former says those whom He gives will come, the latter says those who learn of the Father will come.
All those whom the Father gives will come to Christ, that is, all those who hear the truth from the Father, and learn from the truth they hear from the Father, will come unto Christ.
=======================================
This is from my atonement booklet:
Christ died for all men (Isa. 45:22; 53:6; 55:1; Eze. 18:30-32; Matt. 23:37; Mk. 16:15-16; Lk. 2:10-11; Jn. 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 2:11; 5:15; Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:11; 4:10; Tit. 2:11; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 Jn. 2:22; Rev. 3:20), and He died for all specifically because all men have chosen to become sinners of their own free will (Isa. 52:3; 53:6).
There is no partiality with God (Rom. 2:11; 2 Pet. 1:17). God wants everyone to repent and be saved (Ps. 145:9; Eze. 18:32; 33:1; Acts 17:30-31; 2 Pet. 3:9). The atonement makes salvation possible and available, it is a gift that God offers to all to accept and receive (Jn. 1:11-12; Lk. 14:16-24; Rom 5:18) through a decision (2 Cor. 5:20) to repent and believe, though many reject God’s gracious offer (Isa. 65:2; Lk. 7:30; 14:16-24; Jn. 1:10-11; Rom. 10:21; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17) and resist His grace (Gen. 6:3; Matt. 23:37; Lk. 7:30, 13:34; Acts 7:51).
God is trying to save all men (Jn. 3:16, 6:44-45, 12:32; 16:8; Acts 17:30-31, 2 Pet. 3:9). God gives light to all men (Jn. 1:9). God is convicting all men (Jn. 16:8). God is drawing all men (Jn. 6:44-45, 12:32). God is calling all men (Matt. 11:28, 22:9; Lk. 5:32; Acts 17:30; Rev. 22:17). God’s grace has appeared to all men (Rom. 5:15; Tit. 2:11-12). But many are unwilling and refuse (Isa. 30:9; 30:15-16; Jer. 8:5; Eze. 20:7-8; Matt. 11:20-21; 23:37, Mk. 6:6; 7:30; 13:34; 14:17-18; 19:14; 19:27; Lk. 14:16-24 ;Jn. 5:40; Acts 7:51; 17:27; Rev. 2:21).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 15:25:05 GMT -5
I am saying that Jesus knew that there were presently existing individuals who would accept the Gospel as soon as they hear it. They were obedient to God to the best of their knowledge, with loving obedient hearts, and therefore they were already God's sheep, but they were outside of the fold, and without a Shepherd. But as soon as they hear the Shepherds voice, these sheep of God would follow Him.
I don't believe Jesus was talking about those who were presently disobedient God haters, neither do I believe that Jesus was talking about Gentiles who would believe in the future. In order to believe that, you would have to believe in Calvinist predestination or Arminian foreknowledge, both of which I deny. The future conversion of sinners is open and contingent, not certain or necessitated. Conversion is a free will choice and is therefore open and contingent. If it was predetermined it would be necessitated, and if it was foreknown it would be certain.
But Jesus was not talking about those who were presently disobedient, but would obey in the future. He was talking about sheep that He has right now, who have not heard the voice of the Shepherd yet, but who would follow His voice as soon as they hear Him, since their hearts are already submitted to God, since they are already His sheep:
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16
1. They are already His sheep: "other sheep I have".
2. Therefore, they will obey the Gospel when they hear it: "they shall hear my voice". "the sheep follow him" (Jn. 10:4) "My sheep hear my voice.... they follow me" (Jn. 10:27)
Simeon is an example of a man who waited for the coming Messiah (Lk. 2:25-30). So there was nothing stopping him from believing as soon as the Messiah came. Likewise, there were Gentiles (Cornelius) who were obeying God to the best of their knowledge, and there was nothing stopping them from obeying the Gospel as soon as they heard it.
Right.
Right.
I have no idea. Cornelius seems to be a very rare type of person.
I believe that if a person is genuinely seeking God, they will find Him. I know of Muslims who have prayed and fasted, seeking the truth, wanting to know the true God, and the Lord Jesus Christ appears to them in visions. God is not limited to missionaries. The Holy Spirit is in countries where missionaries are not. And if a person truly seeks after God, they will find Him (Mat. 7:7). God is not far from any of us (Acts 17:26). When Cornelius sought after God, God revealed Jesus Christ to him.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 14:52:43 GMT -5
The will is a faculty of the mind. It is with the mind that we make decisions. The carnal mind is when a person chooses to "mind the things of the flesh". In other words, they choose to be selfish. And choosing to be selfish is enmity with God, because God's law requires love. And since selfishness violates the law of God, the carnal mind is at enmity with God.
The man in Roman's seven knew right from wrong, and his mind was convicted, but he was still choosing to practice sin. He was choosing to do what he knew was wrong, because he still had a wicked heart, that is, sin was dwelling in him (Rom. 7:17, 20). He was a sinner with a convicted mind yet a rebellious heart. His mind consented to the goodness of the law, it affirmed it (Rom. 7:16), yet he was choosing to do what his mind didn't want to do, because his heart was rebellious, because he had sin dwelling in him. Romans 7 is the carnal mind at war with the convicted mind, it is when a person's heart chooses to do what their conscience condemns. And so they are wretched and miserable, under condemnation (Rom. 7:24). But once they obey the Spirit, their mind no longer condemns them, and they have peace (Rom. 8:1).
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 14:47:29 GMT -5
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16
It sounds to me like he is talking about some of the Gentiles.
What makes you say they are unsaved? Was everyone in the Old Testament a God hater? Was everyone, before Christ died, unsaved? There were saved Jews, and saved Gentiles, before Christ died.
What about Enoch, Moses, Abraham, etc. And don't forget Nineveh, the Gentile city. They repented and God forgave them.
Jesus was saying that he had other sheep (Gentiles) who were not of this fold (Jews) and when they hear the truth about Jesus, they will be brought in, because their hearts are obedient to the truth of God. There would be nothing to stop them from obeying this truth, since their heart was already in obedience to the light God had given them.
I think of the Gentile Cornelius who accepted the Gospel as soon as he heard it. He feared God, was devout, gave money, and always prayed to God (Acts 10:1-2). He was a Gentile who was not a God hater. And as soon as he heard the Gospel, he believed it and accepted it. He was a sheep who followed the Shepherd as soon as he heard his voice.
And don't forget this man:
"This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervant in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John." Acts 18:25. As soon as he was given a further revelation, he accepted it immediately, because his heart was already in submission to God.
I wonder if the Ethiopian eunuch was like this also. He was reading the Scriptures already, and as soon as he heard the truth about Jesus, he believed with all his heart and was baptized.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 14:38:29 GMT -5
Those are great ideas!!
Here are a few others ideas:
The Wicked Will Be Cast Into Hell (Ps. 9:17).
Repent or Perish (Lk. 13:3)
You Must Be Born Again (Jn. 3:3)
The Blood of Jesus Washes Away Sins (1 Jn. 1:7)
Stop Sinning (1 Cor. 15:34)
Sin No More (Jn. 8:11)
Turn From All Your Sins (Eze. 18:30)
Stop Doing Evil (Isa. 1:16)
Forsake Your Sinning (Isa. 55:7)
Mercy is for those who forsake their sins (Isa. 55:7)
If You Forsake Your Sin, God Will Have Mercy (Prov. 28:13)
Jesus Shed His Blood For You (1 Jn. 2:2)
Jesus Died For You (Jn 3:16)
Sin Angers God (Ps. 7:11)
God is Angry with Sinners (Ps. 7:11)
Sin Grieves God (Gen. 6:5-6)
God Hates Sin (Ps. 5:5)
Fear God (Prov. 1:7)
Judgment Is Coming (Acts 17:31)
The Unrighteous Will Not Inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10)
Obey the Gospel (1 Pet. 4:17)
God Will Punish Those Who Do Not Obey The Gospel (2 Thes. 1:8)
Turn to Jesus Christ (1 Thes. 1:9)
Eternal Life is for those who Obey Jesus (Heb. 5:9)
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 14:16:19 GMT -5
Logic,
When you were an unconverted "sinner", didn't you ever deliberately disobey your conscience? That is, did you ever sin when you were a "sinner"?
And if you didn't sin, or disobey your conscience, how where you a sinner? If you have always obeyed God, to the best of your knowledge, you were never a sinner.
But if you were a sinner, that means you did what you knew was wrong. “To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” (Jas. 4:17)
And if you did what you knew was wrong, you were hostile towards God (hatred). When God presents the demands of His moral law to our minds, our will either obeys or disobeys. There can be no indifference. The will must choose submission or rebellion. If we are submitted, we are Saints. But if we are rebellious, we are sinners.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 14:07:36 GMT -5
"But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, we will not have this man to reign over us." Lk. 19:14 A sinner is someone who: 1. Knows God exists 2. Knows what God morally requires 3. Is unwilling to do it This is hatred for God. It does not mean that a sinner has malicious feelings towards God, the opposite might be true. It simply means that the sinners will is in hostility to the law of God. This is hatred for God. When a sinner thinks about God, constitutionally he might delight in him because even sinners are so constituted as to delight in goodness. Their hatred for God is not emotional (for some maybe it is) but their hatred for God has to do with their hostility to the law of God (this is universal of all sinners). All sinners hate God, because all sinners disobey God. If they loved God, they would keep His commandments. But anyone who breaks His commandments hates him. All sinners choose to sin, therefore all sinners hate God - their will is hostile to the law of God. There is no middle ground, you either love God or hate God, you either obey God or disobey God. Here is a good sermon called: "Why Sinners Hate God" by Charles Finney: www.gospeltruth.net/1836SOIS/06sois_why_sinrs_hate_god.htmAnd it is precisely because sinners are unwilling to obey God (hostility, hatred) that they need the moral influence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit presents the truth of sin, hell, and the cross to their minds and this influences their will to submission and obedience.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 13:35:31 GMT -5
The Scripture you had at the beginning, Lk 14:16-24, is a great Scripture that proves resistible grace. God genuinely invited them to the banquet, but they rejected the offer. And God was angry with them because they were able to come but they were unwilling to come.
Without the moral influence of the Holy Spirit, no man would come to Christ. God does not force our will, but God influences our will. He does this by sending the Holy Spirit to present the truth to our minds. And the truth on our minds influence our will. The truth of sin, judgment, and the cross influence our will. And we could submit to this influence or we could resist this influence. We could accept God's offer, or we could reject God's offer. That is our free will choice.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hat sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:44-45
The way that the Father draws us to Christ is by teaching us the truth. God must first enlighten our minds, and this influences our will. And if we learn from what we are taught, we will come to Christ.
This is why preaching the Gospel is so important. Because that is God's way of drawing men unto Himself. The truth of the Gospel draws men to Jesus Christ. The truth presented to the mind influences man's will.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 11, 2008 11:44:38 GMT -5
I have heard Calvinists reason like this:
- Christ suffered the punishment that the elect deserve - God cannot punish the same sins twice - Therefore, those for whom Christ died cannot perish
(I disagree with their premise. The punishment that sinners deserve is eternity in hell).
Their argument assumes the retributive satisfaction view of the atonement, and from that premise they logically conclude that those for whom Christ died CANNOT be punished, they HAVE TO BE saved. Justice requires that they be saved, it would be unjust for God to punish them. They do not believe that the atonement made salvation possible for everyone, but automatic for a few. In their view, grace is not offered to everyone, but justice requires the salvation of a few.
There are many problems with this view, but let's just start with the Scriptural problems. How do they get around these following passages which clearly say those for whom Christ died can in fact perish for their sin, even though an atonement for their sin has been provided:
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shalll devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of God?" Heb. 10:26-31
"And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?" 1 Cor. 8:11
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in d**nable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Pet. 2:1
It seems clear to me that men will perish for their sin, despite the fact that Christ died for them, because they do not repent of their sins.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 10, 2008 15:34:06 GMT -5
You have a few options when people crowd around you:
1. Look for elevation. (this does however put you at risk of being shoved). It is also good to find some type of barrier between you and the crowd, like a wall or a bush. That will help keep them back.
2. Stop preaching, let the crowd disperse and calm down, and start up again when you think best. (there is a possibility that this might show them what they have to do in order to get you to stop)
3. Keep preaching and let the hecklers and crowd tire themselves out.
I've done all three of these. Each situation is different, so each method to overcome the problem is good in it's place. You have to decide what the situation calls for.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 9, 2008 15:12:21 GMT -5
So you are saying that God appointed a stumbling stone (vs. 6), and then appointed people to stumble over it (vs. 8)? A stumbling stone is"an obstacle in the way which if one strikes his foot against he stumbles or falls".
I guess the "people" God appointed to stumble over Christ were not individual people, but were a type of people - the proud and so called wise. It takes brokenness and humility to believe on Christ. So anyone who is not willing to be broken in humility is destined to stumble over this rock of offense. And it is their own choice to be proud and arrogant, or their choice to become as a little child. So the fault still lies with them and not with God.
"Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mk. 10:15
“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Greeks foolishness." 1 Cor. 1:23.
"Jesus saith unto them, did ye never read in the Scriptures, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes... And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Mat 21:42, 44
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 9, 2008 10:04:01 GMT -5
Did you know that we are supposed to BEG sinners to be reconciled ON BEHALF OF GOD. So it is actually GOD BEGGING MAN through us?
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beg you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." 2 Cor 5:20
The selfish god of Calvinism has no reason to beg. If he wants to save someone, but they don't want to be saved, he will just spiritually rape them. He has this mysterious date rape drug that makes them willing. They call is "effectual calling" and "irresistible grace". So that is what they are calling it now a days. "I didn't rape her, I just effectually called her under the influence of my irresistible drug, I mean gracious gift." I'm glad I didn't have to drug up my wife before she married me. She married me out of her own FREE WILL.
The benevolent God of the Bible, who gave man free will, certainly does beg sinners to be reconciled. The loving God of the Bible LONGS for all men to be reconciled, but they selfishly refuse. God wants the best for sinners, and will even stoop to begging, because He is that eager to see souls saved.
The god of Calvinism is simply not matching up to the Bible....
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 8, 2008 16:31:45 GMT -5
The Broken Heart of God:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:5-6
"I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me." Eze 6:9
"For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt." Jer 8:21
"Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughters of my people!" Jer 9:1
"What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?" Isa. 5:4
"Jesus wept." Jn. 11:35
How do Calvinists reconcile this with their view of "Sovereignty"??
One Calvinist recently said to me, "he is not heartbroken over the world... the Gospel is not a Gospel of a heartbroken God unable to save."
In their view, God gets everything that He wants, man's will cannot resist God's will. Therefore, everyone God wants to saved will be saved, everyone does what God wants, and therefore God has no reason to be broken hearted.
Basically, when the god of Calvinism looks at the world, He secretly thinks to Himself, "There is nothing wrong with the world. This is exactly how I want the world to be. It is good. Look at the beautiful world that I have created and control."
But that is not the God of the Bible:
BEFORE THE FALL: "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." Gen. 1:31
AFTER THE FALL: "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:5-6
God rejoiced at what His omnipotence created. But God grieved over the sin that man's free will created. God did not create sin, God does not control sinners as far as their moral actions are concerned. They are in rebellion against God's Sovereignty.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 8, 2008 13:25:29 GMT -5
Steve,
Scholars are nice to consider, but they are not the ultimate authority. We need to be our own students of the word. We cannot just rely on what other people say. Often, scholars seem to get it wrong. Not only in the field of theology, but in other areas as well such as science, history, etc. So we have to be willing to disagree with Scholars when it is necessary because of the Word, the Holy Spirit, and our conscience. Remember, it was the scholars (Scribes, Pharisees) who rejected the Messiah. And they studied more than many of our modern scholars! My point is that we are to be followers of the Bible, and not followers of scholars who talk about the Bible. Even the genuine and sincere can get it wrong. Besides, even the "scholars" cannot agree on this passage anyways. So I don't mind disagreeing with the scholars who can't agree themselves.
But Steve, do you see a connection or a correlation between verse 6 and verse 8? Doesn't context clearly explain this passage? And isn't heresy built when we isolate passages and remove them from their context? Look at the context:
"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold I lay [tithemi] in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious, and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." 1 Pet. 2:6
"And, a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them who stumble at the word to which also they were appointed [tithemi], being disobedient" 1Pet. 2:8
Verse 6 says God appointed a cornerstone in Zion. Verse 8 says people stumbled at the Word which was appointed to them.
(Saying that they were appointed to the word is saying the same thing as saying that the word was appointed to them. My wife is married to me, and I am married to my wife. They were appointed to the word, and the word was appointed to them. It is the same thing. You could say Washington was appointed to the Presidency, or you could say that the Presidency was appointed to Washington. You are saying the same thing in a different way.)
The word which they are stumbling over is "the rock of offense" the "stone of stumbling" (vs. 8) which is the same thing as the "chief corner stone" (vs. 6). So men stumble at the Word which was appointed unto them. Jesus Christ is a stumblingblock, a rock of offense, when He is preached among people.
“But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Greeks foolishness." 1 Cor. 1:23.
"As it is written, behold I lay [tithemi] in Zion a stumblingstone, and the rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Rom. 9:33
It amazes me that ANY "scholar" could possible misunderstand or misinterpret this. God appointed a chief cornerstone in Zion and people stumbled over the word which was appointed unto them, being offended at the word that they were appointed to. It is very simple really.
And for someone to use this passage to say that God has eternally decreed that people should disobey Him is nothing short of blasphemy and heresy. I often wonder if such theologians are really unregenerate in their minds, because they certainly don't know God or understand His heart and ways. Those are my honest thoughts.
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 8, 2008 13:06:06 GMT -5
AMEN!
A person's theology can be right on, but if their heart is not right, it is nothing at all. 1 Cor. 13 says that without love, basically it doesn't matter. What it all comes down to is loving God and loving each other. If we do not have hearts of love for God and hearts of love for others, our theology doesn't make an ounce of difference. It is not our theology that will change the world, it will be our love. Christ didn't say they will know we are His disciples by our theology, but by our love.
And if our theology does not result in us loving God more, or not wanting to spend more time with God, then surely our theology is not of God! Any theology that repels us from God, or does not draw us closer to God, is not a theology from God!
These are some very encouraging words:
"Take care that you keep your hearts with all diligence, and that your hearts keep pace with your intellectual improvement. If you do not make a self-application of the truth as fast as you learn it, if you do not obey it, it will ultimately blind instead of enlighten you. You must live up to your convictions, or the study of theology will greatly and fatally harden you. Therefore be careful that you grieve not, resist not, quench not the Holy Spirit. Study on your knees. Go to God with every position that is established, and pray him to write the truth in your heart; and rest not till it be adopted by you as your own, as a truth to influence you, to have dominion over you; and as these truths are developed in your intellect one after the other, and established, let it be settled that in the midst of them, and in conformity with them, you are to live and move and have your being.
"If you do this the study of theology will make you a mellow, anointed, devoted, useful man of God; if you do it not, you will become hardened and reprobate. And of all the reprobate minds in existence, they seem to be the most hardened who have studied theology and gone through the course of theology without receiving the truth into their hearts. Every truth that lodges in the head and does not take possession of the heart, is to the student 'the savor of death unto death.' As you value your own souls, therefore, as you value your influence, as you value the cause of God, let it be settled that with much prayer and the utmost honesty and effort you will make every truth of theology your own, and not only in the sense of mastering it with your intellect, but of embracing and obeying it in your heart." Charles Finney
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Post by Jesse Morrell on Aug 7, 2008 18:54:35 GMT -5
What does "people trying to hang off of you" mean?
Do you mean when sinners crowd around?
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